1 00:00:04,460 --> 00:00:02,570 this hour by Frederick Remington fully 2 00:00:06,349 --> 00:00:04,470 cooked ready-to-eat bacon exclusive no 3 00:00:08,150 --> 00:00:06,359 refrigeration tenure extended shelf-life 4 00:00:09,830 --> 00:00:08,160 bacon the thickest media center cut 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:09,840 bacon in the industry at fully cooked 6 00:00:19,050 --> 00:00:33,670 [Music] 7 00:00:40,570 --> 00:00:36,920 you're in the para cast the gold 8 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:40,580 standard of paranormal radio canal 9 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:46,050 here's gene Stein so ladies and 10 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:48,270 gentlemen let me tell you about Chris 11 00:00:54,939 --> 00:00:53,010 O'Brien he's on his way as we speak to 12 00:00:58,790 --> 00:00:54,949 something called the Utah fest and 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:00:58,800 that's another event that will hear 14 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:01,170 about probably next week and maybe we'll 15 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:03,780 have a guest or two from there excel see 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:04,440 what happens 17 00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:07,290 all right so we have a fascinating 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:09,300 episode today because we're gonna talk 19 00:01:15,190 --> 00:01:12,570 again about that book UFO is reframing 20 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:15,200 the debate and so far we've had on 21 00:01:20,450 --> 00:01:18,240 several of the contributors with heavy 22 00:01:22,940 --> 00:01:20,460 editor Robbie Graham you've had Greg 23 00:01:25,430 --> 00:01:22,950 Bishop one of the contributors we've had 24 00:01:27,770 --> 00:01:25,440 another contributor on after the para 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:27,780 cast last week so if you haven't joined 26 00:01:34,730 --> 00:01:31,050 para cast Plus this is a reason red pill 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:34,740 junky and he's just terrific and this 28 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:36,930 week we've got someone who hasn't been 29 00:01:40,460 --> 00:01:39,150 on the show for a while and we'll talk 30 00:01:43,399 --> 00:01:40,470 to him about that in a moment 31 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:43,409 Kurt Collins who also contributed to the 32 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:44,700 book and a bit later 33 00:01:50,990 --> 00:01:49,200 MJ bin is more of a philosophical bent 34 00:01:53,149 --> 00:01:51,000 and he's new to the show and we're 35 00:01:55,250 --> 00:01:53,159 really anxious to talk to him and get 36 00:01:57,770 --> 00:01:55,260 his point of view but right now let me 37 00:02:00,950 --> 00:01:57,780 welcome back as our guest co-host Kurt 38 00:02:04,130 --> 00:02:00,960 Collins and Kurt I know you try every so 39 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:04,140 often to leave the fo field but we keep 40 00:02:08,749 --> 00:02:07,200 dragging you back in that's right that's 41 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:08,759 right well you know it I guess it gets 42 00:02:15,590 --> 00:02:11,850 in your blood and there's even if you 43 00:02:18,020 --> 00:02:15,600 get sick of the topic or the politics 44 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:18,030 and the squabbles there's also a lot of 45 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:20,430 positive social interaction and if that 46 00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:22,200 for no other reason it'll kind of keep 47 00:02:25,069 --> 00:02:23,940 you interested and you want to know what 48 00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:25,079 your friends are up to 49 00:02:31,009 --> 00:02:27,360 well there are a few things happening in 50 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:31,019 the UFO field for good or bad and I want 51 00:02:34,789 --> 00:02:32,040 to bring up a couple of them 52 00:02:37,370 --> 00:02:34,799 particularly since you were a member of 53 00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:37,380 the Roswell slide study group this group 54 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:39,630 of skeptics believers and those in the 55 00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:41,700 middle who looked at the Roswell slides 56 00:02:47,510 --> 00:02:43,860 and decided pretty quickly 57 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:47,520 it was just a mummy folks I think I felt 58 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:49,470 when I saw the pictures what is this 59 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:52,470 they're saying it's about we have also 60 00:02:57,740 --> 00:02:54,930 mentioned the fact that Don Schmidt has 61 00:03:00,290 --> 00:02:57,750 another Roswell book of 70 years of the 62 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:00,300 Roswell cover-up or something which we 63 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:02,610 will not discuss on the show the 64 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:06,000 publicist for his publisher has said 65 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:08,910 would you like to do this and I said no 66 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:11,310 so she recommended another book coming 67 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:13,650 out from Kevin Randle he's going to do a 68 00:03:19,550 --> 00:03:16,650 new book coming out soon on the Socorro 69 00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:19,560 New Mexico case oh that's interesting 70 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:21,390 you know one thing is that it's 71 00:03:25,729 --> 00:03:23,370 interesting that Don Schmidt is writing 72 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:25,739 a solo book instead of the partner Act 73 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:28,650 but the Socorro case for Kevin Randle is 74 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:31,170 interesting but I've read a little bit 75 00:03:35,420 --> 00:03:33,000 about what he's written on that and it 76 00:03:36,890 --> 00:03:35,430 is certainly it's a landmark case I 77 00:03:39,470 --> 00:03:36,900 think a lot of people think that I had 78 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:39,480 to do with the persuading did at dr. J 79 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:42,780 Allen Hynek from Blue Book that maybe 80 00:03:47,180 --> 00:03:45,180 there was something physical or genuine 81 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:47,190 to this and these weren't all mirages 82 00:03:53,390 --> 00:03:50,970 I thought the Michigan case was one that 83 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:53,400 cemented that opinion because he came 84 00:03:58,310 --> 00:03:55,170 out with this stuff about swamp casts 85 00:04:00,890 --> 00:03:58,320 and he knew he was just bluffing he had 86 00:04:03,259 --> 00:04:00,900 to say something and I think that and a 87 00:04:06,289 --> 00:04:03,269 few other factors and probably Saqqara 88 00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:06,299 was one of them caused him to realize it 89 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:08,489 was a lot more to it but I know I 90 00:04:13,130 --> 00:04:11,040 interviewed dr. Hynek a couple of times 91 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:13,140 and I liked him and I think he was 92 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:15,060 really intellectually honest about where 93 00:04:21,229 --> 00:04:17,970 it went but yeah I'm looking forward to 94 00:04:23,570 --> 00:04:21,239 any new viewpoints that Kevin might have 95 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:23,580 it would be really interesting than if 96 00:04:28,580 --> 00:04:26,130 we brought him on and then maybe race 97 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:28,590 Stanford I just wonder how that's going 98 00:04:32,810 --> 00:04:31,140 to work rate can be an unpredictable guy 99 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:32,820 I've heard so that they could be 100 00:04:39,350 --> 00:04:36,030 interesting could be oil and water very 101 00:04:42,290 --> 00:04:39,360 much so what is Kevin coming up with he 102 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:42,300 said you've aware of it well I'm just 103 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:44,310 seeing that he is he's looked back over 104 00:04:49,670 --> 00:04:47,310 some classic cases certainly Socorro was 105 00:04:52,670 --> 00:04:49,680 one that caught his eye level in Texas 106 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:52,680 another one and his latest blog entry he 107 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:53,910 mentioned that there were new 108 00:04:57,809 --> 00:04:54,550 developments 109 00:05:00,900 --> 00:04:57,819 in mj-12 if you can believe that it is 110 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:00,910 seems like some of the UFO developments 111 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:03,190 or reruns from the 80s but I don't know 112 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:07,330 how mj-12 can be of any importance now 113 00:05:11,550 --> 00:05:09,849 but here it is again I didn't know 114 00:05:13,559 --> 00:05:11,560 whether the laugh will cry when I read 115 00:05:15,689 --> 00:05:13,569 this Kevin has this blog a different 116 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:15,699 perspective folks if just look up Kevin 117 00:05:20,219 --> 00:05:17,740 D Randle online I don't have to give you 118 00:05:23,610 --> 00:05:20,229 the address you'll find it and he's 119 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:23,620 always has fascinating stuff because he 120 00:05:28,290 --> 00:05:25,900 just continues going on he's like the 121 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:28,300 Energizer Bunny he just keeps going on 122 00:05:36,110 --> 00:05:32,110 and on and evidently he's gone to debate 123 00:05:38,580 --> 00:05:36,120 Stephen Bassett about the alleged 124 00:05:42,350 --> 00:05:38,590 reliability or authenticity of these new 125 00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:42,360 mj-12 documents I understand that Kevin 126 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:44,740 didn't even believe in the original ones 127 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:48,099 and has said someone has said why we 128 00:05:53,339 --> 00:05:50,050 expect that Stephen Bassett who's not 129 00:05:55,770 --> 00:05:53,349 very skeptical probably believes them so 130 00:05:58,469 --> 00:05:55,780 it should be a fascinating debate except 131 00:06:01,080 --> 00:05:58,479 do we really care anymore why do we even 132 00:06:02,999 --> 00:06:01,090 bother with that did you get a chance to 133 00:06:05,730 --> 00:06:03,009 look at these and what the documents 134 00:06:07,559 --> 00:06:05,740 contain I have not looked at it I just 135 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:07,569 don't know whether I really want to or 136 00:06:13,170 --> 00:06:10,690 not I don't think you do I briefly there 137 00:06:14,969 --> 00:06:13,180 there's three sections to it there's 138 00:06:16,709 --> 00:06:14,979 kind of an introduction then there's a 139 00:06:18,809 --> 00:06:16,719 recap of the Roswell case which 140 00:06:21,990 --> 00:06:18,819 apparently contains mistakes and then 141 00:06:24,269 --> 00:06:22,000 the next thing moves on to is the Aztec 142 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:24,279 New Mexico case discussed as if it's 143 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:26,770 real and you know that's one of the 144 00:06:30,269 --> 00:06:28,210 biggest hoax is ever I mean it was 145 00:06:31,860 --> 00:06:30,279 influential but you know there was there 146 00:06:34,740 --> 00:06:31,870 was nothing to it there are a few people 147 00:06:37,620 --> 00:06:34,750 that hang on to it the Ramseys and I 148 00:06:40,379 --> 00:06:37,630 think even I have Stan Friedman supports 149 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:40,389 it but you know it's it's still you know 150 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:41,740 it was pulled out of the garbage heap 151 00:06:45,709 --> 00:06:43,900 then there's another section and this is 152 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:45,719 the one that's more sensational an 153 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:50,800 interview with an EBE oh wait a minute 154 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:53,590 is it really worth our time let me tell 155 00:06:58,439 --> 00:06:56,289 you with as tech we've been skeptical we 156 00:07:01,200 --> 00:06:58,449 had Scott Ramsay on the show a few times 157 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:01,210 Frank Warren who lives around that area 158 00:07:06,749 --> 00:07:03,490 and he seemed to be in favor of it and 159 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:06,759 he was seem to be sponsoring Scott now 160 00:07:11,550 --> 00:07:08,650 the thing is here I didn't believe 161 00:07:12,749 --> 00:07:11,560 then we had on on after the para cast 162 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:12,759 another reason for you to subscribe 163 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:16,150 folks we had Monty Shriver who's a 164 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:18,340 retired accountant engineer or something 165 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:21,850 and he came up with a one-year project 166 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:24,910 where he investigated the case and he 167 00:07:28,350 --> 00:07:26,710 said there's nothing to it he grew up in 168 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:28,360 as tech New Mexico and doesn't remember 169 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:31,360 anything he went to his class reunion 170 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:34,990 and nobody remember this is something 171 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:36,310 that happened when he was I don't know 172 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:38,590 12 years old or 13 years old 173 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:41,110 nobody had a memory of it the newspaper 174 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:44,020 publisher mentioned nothing about it it 175 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:46,780 didn't exist prior to Frank Scully's 176 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:48,130 book all right 177 00:07:53,750 --> 00:07:50,110 that's the big problem of Aztec so these 178 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:53,760 mj-12 documents if they were real 179 00:08:01,830 --> 00:07:57,930 forgetting the EBE interview allegedly 180 00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:01,840 that's sufficient to say no this thing 181 00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:02,889 can't be possible 182 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:05,470 it's a fake that's why I don't know if 183 00:08:09,629 --> 00:08:07,750 we live in mention it maybe next time 184 00:08:11,909 --> 00:08:09,639 Kevin is on to talk about the saqqara 185 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:11,919 book I mentioned it to him 186 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:14,050 I keep thinking should I have Stephen 187 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:16,810 Bassett on to explain why he keeps 188 00:08:21,029 --> 00:08:18,280 saying there's going to be disclosure 189 00:08:23,129 --> 00:08:21,039 and it never happens but then he's just 190 00:08:26,070 --> 00:08:23,139 replaying the old game from major Donald 191 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:26,080 Kehoe in the 50s and 60s Keo seemed to 192 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:30,310 feel that he would help bring out the 193 00:08:34,949 --> 00:08:33,400 truth about UFOs he would stop the 194 00:08:38,579 --> 00:08:34,959 silence group in its tracks 195 00:08:41,820 --> 00:08:38,589 he failed Stephen Bassett continues to 196 00:08:44,250 --> 00:08:41,830 fail so how often does he say the same 197 00:08:46,769 --> 00:08:44,260 thing before we give up on it whether 198 00:08:49,410 --> 00:08:46,779 the the key difference between major 199 00:08:52,230 --> 00:08:49,420 Keyhoe was that he was pursuing 200 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:52,240 investigation and he felt that there was 201 00:08:58,710 --> 00:08:56,500 a cover-up but Stephen Bassett is taking 202 00:09:00,570 --> 00:08:58,720 an exponential jump and that there are 203 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:00,580 treaties there the government has 204 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:02,290 knowledge of specific knowledge and 205 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:04,660 interaction and you know that's the 206 00:09:08,699 --> 00:09:06,400 disclosure he wants to force he's not 207 00:09:11,370 --> 00:09:08,709 saying we need to look into this he's 208 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:11,380 saying tell us tell us about the aliens 209 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:13,690 and you know some people don't believe 210 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:16,690 there's much to be said about that you 211 00:09:20,249 --> 00:09:18,490 know we'd love to see more documents but 212 00:09:22,650 --> 00:09:20,259 you know this is a blood out of the 213 00:09:25,259 --> 00:09:22,660 Stone type question and if there it may 214 00:09:26,969 --> 00:09:25,269 not be anything there and you see that's 215 00:09:29,369 --> 00:09:26,979 the difference I agree with you with 216 00:09:31,169 --> 00:09:29,379 Kehoe Kehoe was saying yes they were 217 00:09:33,809 --> 00:09:31,179 spaceships but he didn't go into these 218 00:09:37,349 --> 00:09:33,819 elaborate conspiracies about government 219 00:09:39,659 --> 00:09:37,359 collusion with et and all that you know 220 00:09:42,389 --> 00:09:39,669 his approach was more sensible he was a 221 00:09:43,949 --> 00:09:42,399 retired Marine Corps major so whatever 222 00:09:47,429 --> 00:09:43,959 you think about his approach were 223 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:47,439 sensible Bassett takes it thousands and 224 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:50,049 thousands of levels beyond that we're 225 00:09:53,309 --> 00:09:52,809 talking about UFOs reframing the debate 226 00:09:56,340 --> 00:09:53,319 again 227 00:09:59,460 --> 00:09:56,350 MJ baniyas will join us in a few moments 228 00:10:02,789 --> 00:09:59,470 Chris O'Brien's on special assignment 229 00:10:12,059 --> 00:10:02,799 with Gene and Curt you're in a parry 230 00:10:14,879 --> 00:10:12,069 cast we also have swag you know we have 231 00:10:16,379 --> 00:10:14,889 all these exclusive power cast things 232 00:10:18,299 --> 00:10:16,389 that you can buy 233 00:10:21,150 --> 00:10:18,309 we've got like I guess 60 or so 234 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:21,160 different items and entails t-shirts 235 00:10:28,019 --> 00:10:24,730 sleeves for notebook computers iPad 236 00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:28,029 cases mouse pads the para cast jumbo 237 00:10:32,189 --> 00:10:30,399 tote bag all sorts of t-shirts and 238 00:10:35,429 --> 00:10:32,199 jackets and stuff like that for men and 239 00:10:37,949 --> 00:10:35,439 women we have a para cast aluminum water 240 00:10:40,829 --> 00:10:37,959 bottle all the stuff you go to store da 241 00:10:44,099 --> 00:10:40,839 to the power cast comm store the power 242 00:10:46,289 --> 00:10:44,109 cast calm what makes special is that the 243 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:46,299 items are the best quality of great 244 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:48,910 t-shirts fabrics and they have our 245 00:10:52,439 --> 00:10:50,649 official logo on them that's what makes 246 00:10:55,349 --> 00:10:52,449 them special in multiple sizes and 247 00:10:58,049 --> 00:10:55,359 colors we even have stuff for children 248 00:11:00,629 --> 00:10:58,059 stuff for women stuff for men we have 249 00:11:02,849 --> 00:11:00,639 all sorts of sizes like small up to X 250 00:11:05,309 --> 00:11:02,859 large a lot good stuff that's the swag 251 00:11:08,909 --> 00:11:05,319 from the para cast to go to steward dot 252 00:11:11,489 --> 00:11:08,919 ^ cast calm stop by and take a shopping 253 00:11:12,689 --> 00:11:11,499 tour hi my name is lead for 10 years 254 00:11:15,299 --> 00:11:12,699 I've suffered from ulcerative colitis 255 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:15,309 I've taken pregnant ibuprofen and many 256 00:11:18,419 --> 00:11:16,809 other prescription drugs and ever saw 257 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:18,429 any improvement I tried to salmon oil 258 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in providing the 328 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:53,680 protection you deserve no scare tactics 329 00:13:58,740 --> 00:13:56,290 just common sense locket pocket comm 330 00:14:00,780 --> 00:13:58,750 offers quality american-made options to 331 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:00,790 alleviate and eliminate these invisible 332 00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:01,630 dangers 333 00:14:05,310 --> 00:14:03,820 learn more at blackhat pocket comm or 334 00:14:07,890 --> 00:14:05,320 call eight eight eight three one five 335 00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:07,900 nine six one eight block it pocket comm 336 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:13,780 enhancing health and privacy we'd like 337 00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:15,850 to hear from you if you have a comment 338 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:18,460 or question about the para cast send it 339 00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:22,330 to news at the para cast com that's news 340 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:25,630 at the para cast calm and don't forget 341 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:27,910 to visit our famous para cast community 342 00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:32,730 forums at forum dot the para cast calm 343 00:14:38,070 --> 00:14:35,920 so Kurt Collins is our guest co-host and 344 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:38,080 he'll also be on after the power cast 345 00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:41,170 Chris O'Brien is at the Utah fest we'll 346 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:43,750 hear about that next week we welcome to 347 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:47,310 the para cast em Jabin iist he's another 348 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:50,530 contributor to that book UFO is 349 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:53,110 reframing the debate and he'll join us 350 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:54,550 in just a moment but I want to tell you 351 00:15:00,180 --> 00:14:57,310 first about after the power cast our 352 00:15:02,579 --> 00:15:00,190 premium podcast now after the power cast 353 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,589 is one of those unpredictable things we 354 00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:04,480 might just be talking about stuff we 355 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:07,480 might have exclusive guests it's all a 356 00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:10,510 mixed bag but it's fascinating always 357 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:14,110 you can only hear it if you join the 358 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:17,200 para cast plus go-to plus dr. para cast 359 00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:22,150 com that's PL us dot the para cast com 360 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:24,280 we give you simple sign up instructions 361 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:26,710 it's basically joining the forums if 362 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:28,330 you're not already there and upgrading 363 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:30,400 your membership we give you access to 364 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:32,470 after the para cast we offer a 365 00:15:36,990 --> 00:15:35,260 commercial free version of this show 366 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:37,000 with better quality audio we've got some 367 00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:39,280 videos and other stuff coming and the 368 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:41,320 subscription prices started just a 369 00:15:46,950 --> 00:15:44,050 dollar forty nine a week it's the number 370 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:46,960 one way to support the power cast plus 371 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:48,730 not the power cast com 372 00:15:53,980 --> 00:15:52,300 so MJ really glad to have you on and 373 00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:53,990 before we talk about 374 00:15:59,170 --> 00:15:56,240 contribution to the book and a cultural 375 00:16:02,650 --> 00:15:59,180 thing I want to get details about how 376 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:02,660 did you get caught up in the UFO mess 377 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:04,730 first thanks very much for having me on 378 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:07,130 it's a real honor to be here I'm a big 379 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:10,610 fan and this is like it says the gold 380 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:12,350 standard of paranormal radio so it's an 381 00:16:19,810 --> 00:16:15,170 honor for me to be on your show it's an 382 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:19,820 honor for us to have you so you know for 383 00:16:25,079 --> 00:16:22,970 me being involved in this sort of the 384 00:16:28,510 --> 00:16:25,089 madness that is the UFO field I guess 385 00:16:31,570 --> 00:16:28,520 you know my story's pretty pretty boring 386 00:16:34,510 --> 00:16:31,580 actually I you know grew up sort of 387 00:16:37,389 --> 00:16:34,520 loving watching you know the the TV 388 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:37,399 shows about you know aliens and the 389 00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:38,690 Outer Limits was definitely a favorite 390 00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:41,540 of mine growing up not the 60s version 391 00:16:46,570 --> 00:16:43,520 like the the 90s reboot I guess with the 392 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:46,580 80s reboot and you know it's just kind 393 00:16:49,389 --> 00:16:48,170 of my parents let me watch TV I probably 394 00:16:52,829 --> 00:16:49,399 shouldn't been watching when I was young 395 00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:52,839 and I fell in love with just the idea of 396 00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:56,540 you know aliens and UFOs and and I 397 00:16:59,860 --> 00:16:58,160 started reading all the sort of the 398 00:17:00,400 --> 00:16:59,870 magazines and the books about the 399 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:00,410 subject 400 00:17:05,949 --> 00:17:02,690 I remember my school library had one of 401 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:05,959 those hardcover picture books from those 402 00:17:10,299 --> 00:17:07,970 with you know photographs and stuff 403 00:17:12,130 --> 00:17:10,309 about sort of UFOs and aliens so it was 404 00:17:13,929 --> 00:17:12,140 something that sort of was always around 405 00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:13,939 in my life I guess that I really enjoyed 406 00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:17,750 and I have to be honest I just sort of 407 00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:20,990 started um you know hanging out with 408 00:17:25,809 --> 00:17:23,150 Chris Rick oh yeah a little bit you know 409 00:17:27,730 --> 00:17:25,819 a mutual friend of ours and and I 410 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:27,740 realized that you know I wanted to start 411 00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:30,650 contributing a little more - I guess the 412 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:32,540 UFO question sort of I had been doing a 413 00:17:35,410 --> 00:17:34,250 lot of research and study in the 414 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:35,420 background but never really said 415 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:36,590 anything and I had a lot of opinions 416 00:17:41,919 --> 00:17:40,370 about it and it just sort of started 417 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:41,929 falling in line I became a field 418 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:44,240 investigator for MUFON which I recently 419 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:46,850 sort of ended my relationship with MUFON 420 00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:50,720 only a couple weeks ago and you know I'm 421 00:17:55,930 --> 00:17:53,240 still writing and I'm just I don't know 422 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:55,940 using my my university education and 423 00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:57,110 putting it to good use and obviously 424 00:18:00,430 --> 00:17:58,730 talking about UFOs and aliens right 425 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,440 because that's the best use for a 426 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:02,720 university degree that's for sure what 427 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:05,210 is your university degree in I have a 428 00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,850 bachelor's degree in English 429 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:08,320 which is which focuses in critical 430 00:18:14,009 --> 00:18:10,720 theory I've minored in history and 431 00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:14,019 philosophy I also have a bachelor degree 432 00:18:17,999 --> 00:18:15,940 in education as well as a post 433 00:18:19,379 --> 00:18:18,009 baccalaureate diploma in critical theory 434 00:18:21,629 --> 00:18:19,389 for those of you don't know critical 435 00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:21,639 theories is philosophy predominantly but 436 00:18:25,049 --> 00:18:23,350 it's a cultural philosophy it's not 437 00:18:27,389 --> 00:18:25,059 really metaphysics or epistemology it's 438 00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:27,399 more about the philosophy of culture of 439 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:29,470 everyday sort of culture that's critical 440 00:18:33,539 --> 00:18:31,090 theory looking at sort of those systems 441 00:18:35,789 --> 00:18:33,549 so you know a smattering of university 442 00:18:37,769 --> 00:18:35,799 degrees and nothing too serious I'm you 443 00:18:38,820 --> 00:18:37,779 know I'm not a doctor or anything it's 444 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,830 definitely given me enough background 445 00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:40,720 that I can sort of do some writing and 446 00:18:44,009 --> 00:18:42,700 definitely in pursuing some more 447 00:18:46,529 --> 00:18:44,019 university education sort of part-time 448 00:18:48,509 --> 00:18:46,539 but you know if a family now so I have 449 00:18:50,999 --> 00:18:48,519 to put that first obviously and you have 450 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:51,009 to make a book are you a teacher I am 451 00:18:54,889 --> 00:18:52,570 yeah I'm an educator yeah I teach 452 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:54,899 English and history you see I got that 453 00:19:00,240 --> 00:18:58,330 connection now talking about culture one 454 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:00,250 of the things I've looked into and I'm 455 00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:02,289 sure Kurt has as well we've explored the 456 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:04,929 power cash it's not just case history so 457 00:19:11,789 --> 00:19:08,080 much as UFOs as a cultural phenomenon 458 00:19:14,940 --> 00:19:11,799 how it either generates or reflects our 459 00:19:18,779 --> 00:19:14,950 culture have you considered that yo for 460 00:19:21,749 --> 00:19:18,789 sure my blog Tarab spirit is basically 461 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:21,759 sort of a it's a cultural blog I explore 462 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:24,129 the UFO question from a cultural 463 00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:27,250 standpoint so I personally while I am 464 00:19:31,619 --> 00:19:29,440 interested in sort of obviously finding 465 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:31,629 out the answer to the UFO riddle I think 466 00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:35,110 you know a lot of us are I it's not my 467 00:19:42,029 --> 00:19:36,940 biggest interest my biggest interest is 468 00:19:44,669 --> 00:19:42,039 how the UFO shapes our I guess our 469 00:19:46,169 --> 00:19:44,679 perceptions of sort of outer space how 470 00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:46,179 it shapes our perceptions of ourselves 471 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:47,799 how it shapes our perceptions of our 472 00:19:52,529 --> 00:19:49,480 government how it shapes our perceptions 473 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:52,539 of our position on this planet as sort 474 00:19:56,730 --> 00:19:54,610 of being the only quote/unquote 475 00:19:59,039 --> 00:19:56,740 intelligent species you know so I think 476 00:20:01,860 --> 00:19:59,049 the UFO question brings together a whole 477 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:01,870 bunch of our cultural knowledge and a 478 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:03,370 whole bunch of our cultural anxieties 479 00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:05,590 and it lumps it into sort of a flying 480 00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:07,960 silver disc and it's sort of beautiful 481 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:10,720 because no one else is really studying 482 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:12,100 it in this way at least there's not many 483 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:13,990 people who are studying in this way so 484 00:20:18,419 --> 00:20:15,610 I've really sort of found a nice niche 485 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:18,429 in the cultural study of the UFO 486 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:20,260 question so here's a 487 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:23,410 point are we seeing what's really there 488 00:20:29,490 --> 00:20:26,110 or are we seeing the shiny silvery disk 489 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:29,500 because right now our culture is steeped 490 00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:31,630 in sci-fi and that's one of the images 491 00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,740 right this is a sort of an age old UFO 492 00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:37,120 question right i mean you know jacques 493 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:39,160 valet would sort of posit this right he 494 00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:42,430 would he would say the image of the UFO 495 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:44,560 has sort of shifted throughout history 496 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:47,200 right he would say the image of the UFO 497 00:20:52,020 --> 00:20:49,450 whatever we see has shifted across 498 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:52,030 culture a thousand years ago people saw 499 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:54,130 sort of fairies and angels and demons 500 00:20:59,610 --> 00:20:57,130 and sort of that sort of cultural kind 501 00:21:02,670 --> 00:20:59,620 of concept these concepts of culture 502 00:21:04,140 --> 00:21:02,680 these folkloric ideas and you know as we 503 00:21:06,330 --> 00:21:04,150 progressed into sort of he talks about 504 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:06,340 the airships in the 1800s late 1800s and 505 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:07,900 then sort of the 1950s obviously saw the 506 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:10,090 flying saucers in the 80s you know as 507 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:12,130 the black triangle was quite popular you 508 00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:14,050 know so yeah I think we saw that we sort 509 00:21:20,550 --> 00:21:17,500 of do see this progression of what 510 00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,560 aliens look like and what UFOs look like 511 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:22,480 and there's it's definitely sort of 512 00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:25,630 shifting across time and culture I think 513 00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:27,910 so I don't know I you know it answer 514 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:30,280 your question is it actually a shiny 515 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:31,930 silver disc or is it actually a black 516 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:34,480 triangle you know I don't know but if 517 00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:36,850 you kind of look at the cases and as 518 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:38,500 they progress through time you know 519 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:39,910 people don't see flying saucers very 520 00:21:44,610 --> 00:21:41,860 much anymore you know we see other 521 00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:44,620 things now and is that culture or is 522 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:46,360 that just you know the aliens are for 523 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:47,740 some reason changing their technology I 524 00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:50,770 don't know I can't speak for them okay 525 00:21:55,740 --> 00:21:52,840 this is really interesting so we really 526 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:55,750 have to look at this what might be 527 00:22:01,980 --> 00:21:58,090 behind it now any time I think about 528 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:01,990 UFOs having a shape or structure in a 529 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:04,450 way that is different than what it 530 00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:07,090 really is I think at the movie contact 531 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:10,990 yeah where Judy foster czt in the form 532 00:22:16,350 --> 00:22:13,210 of her late father because she does 533 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:16,360 relate to it and ET tells her and it 534 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:18,850 could be a dream but comes to her and 535 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:22,270 says you're seeing me this way because 536 00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:26,230 you will be better able to accept what I 537 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:28,540 look like now that has all sorts of 538 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:30,450 different meanings it could be maybe 539 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:33,730 he's or it's visible in a way 540 00:22:38,580 --> 00:22:36,130 that we can't see or the appearance 541 00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:38,590 would be so grotesque that we couldn't 542 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:41,080 accept it or it's pure energy like we 543 00:22:48,930 --> 00:22:43,570 saw in some of the Star Trek episodes or 544 00:22:52,830 --> 00:22:48,940 he's from the Q universe we have M Jabin 545 00:23:05,430 --> 00:22:52,840 iesson Kurt Collins you're in the para 546 00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:05,440 cast thank you for listening to GCN 547 00:23:12,419 --> 00:23:09,360 be sure to visit GCN live.com today 548 00:23:14,879 --> 00:23:12,429 hunters anglers campers and survivalists 549 00:23:16,769 --> 00:23:14,889 get back to 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00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:07,350 soap calm or call one eight hundred 621 00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:09,630 three four zero seven zero nine one four 622 00:26:13,370 --> 00:26:11,340 eight catalog hi there I'm Bob Eubanks 623 00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:13,380 you know as part of Hollywood for a long 624 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:14,880 time I've seen my fair share of 625 00:26:19,790 --> 00:26:16,890 celebrities get in trouble with the IRS 626 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:19,800 well there's one name I trust the tax 627 00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:22,410 defense group they're the most trusted 628 00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:24,840 name in tax so if you owe more than ten 629 00:26:29,060 --> 00:26:27,270 thousand dollars to the IRS you really 630 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:29,070 need to call my friends at the tax 631 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:31,710 defense group ignoring the IRS is not 632 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:33,840 the solution they can garnish your 633 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:36,090 paycheck levy your bank accounts seize 634 00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:38,100 your home or business but the tax 635 00:26:42,410 --> 00:26:40,230 defense group could put a stop to all of 636 00:26:44,810 --> 00:26:42,420 that and tailor a program that would 637 00:26:47,570 --> 00:26:44,820 reduce your tax debt to pennies on the 638 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:47,580 dollar you've got to love that so don't 639 00:26:51,980 --> 00:26:49,710 just take my word for it call them find 640 00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:51,990 out for yourself they offer a 100% 641 00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:54,750 satisfaction guarantee and they're open 642 00:26:59,810 --> 00:26:57,000 24 hours a day because they know that 643 00:27:01,430 --> 00:26:59,820 tax debt doesn't sleep either call now 644 00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:01,440 for your free and confidential tax 645 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:03,240 analysis from the most trusted name in 646 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:06,090 tax call 800 three six one sixty nine oh 647 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:08,670 seven eight hundred three six one sixty 648 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:17,730 [Music] 649 00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:19,960 hi this is Bryce Abel I'm the producer 650 00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:21,940 of dark skies the co-author of AD after 651 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:23,860 disclosure and you are listening to the 652 00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:26,010 para cast the gold standard of 653 00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:36,910 paranormal radio MJ bond is joining us 654 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:39,670 on the para cast Kirk Collins is our 655 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:42,250 guest co-host exploring the reality of 656 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:47,050 UFOs and what may lie behind the curtain 657 00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:50,610 so MJ do you think there's a curtain or 658 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:53,679 are we making it all up yeah 659 00:27:56,610 --> 00:27:55,450 I'm going to touch on a blog post I 660 00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:56,620 wrote Blues called involuntary 661 00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:59,440 shapeshifters and the blog post sort of 662 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:02,080 asks this question and that you're sort 663 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:04,510 of you're you're you're quiet you're 664 00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:06,610 asking on I think there's a lot to be 665 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:10,720 said for the idea that we create our own 666 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:13,570 reality we create our own image of 667 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:16,450 reality sort of what we understand as 668 00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:18,970 happening around us is interpreted by 669 00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:21,070 our brain and our senses rather sent 670 00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:22,120 signals to our brain and then the brain 671 00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:24,640 kind of responds and I did cite in my 672 00:28:29,310 --> 00:28:26,740 blog post the moment from contact where 673 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:29,320 she meets sort of this alien and it's 674 00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:31,090 and it's in the shape of her father and 675 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:33,220 it's this Beach that she grew up on that 676 00:28:40,350 --> 00:28:35,770 she remembered as a child and I think if 677 00:28:42,419 --> 00:28:40,360 we really look at a lot of the UFO cases 678 00:28:45,270 --> 00:28:42,429 out there we look at sort of the 679 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:45,280 anecdotes of alien contact whether it's 680 00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:48,010 abduction or sort of like contact not 681 00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:50,830 sort of violent abduction the image of 682 00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:54,460 the alien whatever it is changes across 683 00:29:01,530 --> 00:28:58,690 time it also changes depending on sort 684 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:01,540 of what the experience is like so we can 685 00:29:05,850 --> 00:29:03,220 chalk this up to one of two things one 686 00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,860 we can chalk this up to all of these 687 00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:08,080 different beings exist and we sort of 688 00:29:12,270 --> 00:29:10,360 see this in the UFO sort of narrative 689 00:29:14,010 --> 00:29:12,280 right there's the greys and the 690 00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:14,020 insectoids and the reptilians and all 691 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:16,000 this sort of wild assortment of all of 692 00:29:20,250 --> 00:29:17,980 these different creatures that are sort 693 00:29:22,770 --> 00:29:20,260 of all interacting with humanity and 694 00:29:26,250 --> 00:29:22,780 they interact in different ways and it's 695 00:29:27,870 --> 00:29:26,260 it's all this massive jumble of chaos or 696 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:27,880 there's the other way where we look at 697 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:29,350 it as you know potentially there is 698 00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:31,010 something out there there's some sort of 699 00:29:38,169 --> 00:29:34,100 other however our interpretation of it 700 00:29:40,690 --> 00:29:38,179 shifts based upon perhaps what we want 701 00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:40,700 to see or perhaps on what we can 702 00:29:46,659 --> 00:29:43,820 understand or perhaps on what what sort 703 00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:46,669 of the creature wants the other rather 704 00:29:51,789 --> 00:29:49,910 wants us to sort of interpret it as I 705 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:51,799 guess whether it's going to be a violent 706 00:29:55,690 --> 00:29:53,450 experience or a peaceful experience or 707 00:29:56,830 --> 00:29:55,700 whatever and ultimately you know when 708 00:29:59,080 --> 00:29:56,840 you kind of think about this you know 709 00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:59,090 both require a bit of a leap and belief 710 00:30:03,010 --> 00:30:00,799 right you know there's no real evidence 711 00:30:05,340 --> 00:30:03,020 to support well there is evidence I 712 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:05,350 suppose but there's no sort of 713 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:07,490 necessarily concrete evidence that we've 714 00:30:13,150 --> 00:30:09,650 all accepted as being 100% legitimate 715 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:13,160 that this other exists and I kind of 716 00:30:18,909 --> 00:30:16,490 like the idea leaning more to this 717 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:18,919 concept that potentially there is some 718 00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:21,410 intelligence out there and it simply 719 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:25,160 adjusts itself to our interpretation of 720 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:28,250 it the we build the reality for it it 721 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:30,830 exists in the reality we shape it or we 722 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:33,770 give it to exist in because it's I think 723 00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:34,970 it's one thing to potentially believe in 724 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:36,559 one intelligent other to believe that 725 00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:38,270 there's dozens of species all 726 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:39,919 interacting with humanity simultaneously 727 00:30:44,049 --> 00:30:41,690 and they all have different agendas you 728 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:44,059 know that gets a little hairy at least 729 00:30:48,970 --> 00:30:45,770 four means we're very popular out there 730 00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:48,980 and et-land right and that's like why 731 00:30:53,890 --> 00:30:52,040 what do we have here you know what do 732 00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:53,900 they want from us that was a joke I 733 00:30:57,789 --> 00:30:56,150 really don't know I I have a question 734 00:30:59,710 --> 00:30:57,799 for you about you mentioned that you 735 00:31:01,299 --> 00:30:59,720 were a MUFON field investigator could 736 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:01,309 you could you tell me a little bit about 737 00:31:07,630 --> 00:31:04,610 that experience sure what do you want to 738 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:07,640 know well for one thing we uh I'm 739 00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:10,610 curious about how that contrast with 740 00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:14,030 your philosophical approach because you 741 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:17,030 know as understand that the field 742 00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:19,370 investigator manual is mostly about 743 00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:22,460 physical details right and kind of 744 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:24,590 contrast it with your approach and how 745 00:31:30,730 --> 00:31:27,770 comfortable you with you you were using 746 00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:30,740 it and oh I would you know if you could 747 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:32,150 tell some about the cases you 748 00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:34,700 investigated sure yeah and you know my 749 00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:36,110 time with MUFON was was relatively short 750 00:31:42,910 --> 00:31:40,700 I did about two years little longer and 751 00:31:44,350 --> 00:31:42,920 you know one thing I'll say is someone 752 00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:44,360 with a philosophy background it's you 753 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:47,830 know I my entire university careers is 754 00:31:51,460 --> 00:31:49,850 compartmentalizing portions of my brain 755 00:31:53,770 --> 00:31:51,470 so that I can have sort of multiple 756 00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:53,780 belief systems at once and and I don't 757 00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:55,520 really buy into anything so you can call 758 00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,960 that wishy-washy or waffling and they 759 00:32:01,150 --> 00:31:59,360 kind of is so when when you're sort of 760 00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:01,160 dealing with MUFON and it's funny right 761 00:32:05,470 --> 00:32:03,140 because you Kurt you kind of made this 762 00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:05,480 interesting claim about MUFON where the 763 00:32:10,990 --> 00:32:08,110 the field investigators manual is about 764 00:32:13,330 --> 00:32:11,000 collecting sort of hard data you know 765 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:13,340 what did the UFO look like what was the 766 00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:15,890 weather like that day you know the 767 00:32:20,340 --> 00:32:17,990 barometric pressure you know flight 768 00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:20,350 paths assessing sort of the environment 769 00:32:26,620 --> 00:32:24,230 that the UFO event took place in and 770 00:32:28,150 --> 00:32:26,630 then sort of assessing the witness in 771 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:28,160 some way because you know we're all 772 00:32:30,460 --> 00:32:29,360 volunteers and none of us have a psych 773 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:30,470 background but apparently we're 774 00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,370 qualified to assess a witness so there's 775 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:36,080 kind of that aspect this the sort of 776 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:39,160 hard scientific field investigative 777 00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:42,170 portion but then really when you look at 778 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:44,620 MUFON itself as an organization it is 779 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:47,210 nothing like the field investigators 780 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:50,570 manual fundamentally it isn't the MUFON 781 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:53,870 as an organization has sort of 782 00:33:00,130 --> 00:32:57,320 legitimized every single aspect of UFO 783 00:33:02,170 --> 00:33:00,140 discourse they've said secret spaceport 784 00:33:06,460 --> 00:33:02,180 program no problem we believe in that 785 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:06,470 sort of we buy every abduction story you 786 00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:08,210 know with without question and if you 787 00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:10,400 think it happened it happened you know 788 00:33:19,020 --> 00:33:13,880 it MUFON has kind of I think divided 789 00:33:23,310 --> 00:33:19,030 itself against itself so you know for me 790 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:23,320 I don't think there's sort of something 791 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:26,720 about MUFON that that is kind of hard 792 00:33:31,690 --> 00:33:29,330 fact only I think they've kind of thrown 793 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:31,700 there laden with sort of the rest of the 794 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:33,770 UFO people out there and they've bought 795 00:33:40,090 --> 00:33:37,970 into the ideology as much as sort of any 796 00:33:41,860 --> 00:33:40,100 other organization has you know in so 797 00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:41,870 far as MUFON claims that we are a 798 00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:45,860 scientific organization you know 799 00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:47,750 scientific ish I think would be more 800 00:33:52,750 --> 00:33:50,960 appropriate but to talk about specific 801 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:52,760 cases you know there's been plenty I've 802 00:33:55,540 --> 00:33:53,930 kind of run the gap 803 00:34:00,100 --> 00:33:55,550 from just you know lights in the sky at 804 00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:00,110 night to full-out abduction to daylight 805 00:34:07,330 --> 00:34:03,590 discs you know I've kind of been sort of 806 00:34:09,070 --> 00:34:07,340 all over where I live in Canada you know 807 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:09,080 all over the province kind of talking to 808 00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:11,090 people and chasing chasing UFOs 809 00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:15,140 quote-unquote you know I've had a few 810 00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:18,710 interesting ones um I think I've only 811 00:34:24,850 --> 00:34:22,820 closed one as an actual unknown um so I 812 00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:24,860 wouldn't say I've had sort of anything 813 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:28,790 that to me was mind-bogglingly you know 814 00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:31,790 unknowable um they usually turn out to 815 00:34:36,850 --> 00:34:35,120 be pretty prosaic you know and then you 816 00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:36,860 deal with sort of the people who make 817 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:40,159 abduction claims and its end and you 818 00:34:44,740 --> 00:34:42,649 know I have to be honest I'm a skeptic 819 00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:44,750 but I'm a romantic skeptic so I'll 820 00:34:51,070 --> 00:34:48,350 believe sort of the story in a sense 821 00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:51,080 that you know I'm sure it happened you 822 00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:52,700 know what I mean like in my heart I'll 823 00:34:59,580 --> 00:34:54,950 believe it I guess but you know I also 824 00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:01,450 intelligent about this right we have to 825 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:03,380 sort of assess properly what's going on 826 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:05,570 and do you have evidence to support your 827 00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:07,910 claims and you know obviously not I mean 828 00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,630 otherwise I'd be a millionaire so um 829 00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:13,040 yeah it was it was an interesting 830 00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:14,720 experience can I end it with that it was 831 00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:16,390 an interesting experience 832 00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:19,400 MUFON was interesting it's it's it's 833 00:35:24,540 --> 00:35:21,560 yeah complicated let's put it that way 834 00:35:29,230 --> 00:35:24,550 you know what I'm getting some 835 00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:29,240 irritating connotations here about MUFON 836 00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:31,760 and I have to tell you before we go on 837 00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:35,270 we have had some shows about MUFON where 838 00:35:39,490 --> 00:35:36,920 we see them in a less than favorable 839 00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:39,500 light so we have for example this 840 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:43,460 gentleman who very deep in the MUFON he 841 00:35:48,780 --> 00:35:45,050 was one of the co-hosts of the hangar 842 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:48,790 one TV show yeah and he was writing 843 00:35:55,180 --> 00:35:51,890 white nationalist racist stuff on 844 00:35:59,380 --> 00:35:55,190 Facebook yeah and they were reluctant 845 00:36:01,570 --> 00:35:59,390 decidedly reluctant to let him go in 846 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:01,580 fact one person or some people were 847 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:04,010 called haters and turned out this guy 848 00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:06,290 was among this group of people who had 849 00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:07,820 given at least 5000 850 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:10,790 dollars in donations to move on right 851 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:13,490 and I hate to think that one status is 852 00:36:18,850 --> 00:36:16,610 cemented by the money regardless of 853 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:18,860 their personal viewpoints or offensive 854 00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:21,890 behavior now the thing to point out here 855 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:24,800 is you're entitled to your beliefs but 856 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:26,330 when you make beliefs that are so 857 00:36:31,780 --> 00:36:29,450 polarizing and could be considered hate 858 00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:31,790 speech and you're associated with an 859 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:33,320 organization that wants to be taken 860 00:36:38,220 --> 00:36:35,780 seriously as a scientific research 861 00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:38,230 organization there's a serious 862 00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:40,220 disconnect but we'll have more to say 863 00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:44,120 and maybe MJ's response about the things 864 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:48,140 that are left unsaid about MUFON we have 865 00:37:02,500 --> 00:36:51,170 MJ baniyas cohost Kurt Collins I'm gene 866 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:02,510 Steinberg you're in the para cast thank 867 00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:05,450 you for listening to GCN 868 00:37:11,859 --> 00:37:09,369 be sure to visit GCN live.com today 869 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:11,869 neighbors I 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individual regardless of sleep position 940 00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:03,650 my pillow will get you into that deep 941 00:40:06,099 --> 00:40:05,390 REM sleep faster and you will stay there 942 00:40:07,870 --> 00:40:06,109 longer 943 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:07,880 it's not about how much time we spend in 944 00:40:11,410 --> 00:40:09,650 bed it's about how much of that quality 945 00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:11,420 sleep we get I do all of my own 946 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:13,160 manufacturing right here in the United 947 00:40:17,170 --> 00:40:15,290 States I have a 10 year warranty you can 948 00:40:19,660 --> 00:40:17,180 wash and dry my pillow and I give you a 949 00:40:21,790 --> 00:40:19,670 60 day money back guarantee so you have 950 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:21,800 nothing to lose and here's my best offer 951 00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:23,570 ever you can buy one of my pillows and 952 00:41:06,550 --> 00:40:25,670 get one absolutely free a go to my 953 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:06,560 pillow comm or call 818-384-6869 seven 954 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:08,810 eight eight six three six five three go 955 00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:19,140 this is ugly and you're listening to the 956 00:41:30,210 --> 00:41:22,270 podcast the gold standard of how normal 957 00:41:33,330 --> 00:41:30,220 radio sounds like you've been practicing 958 00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:33,340 MJ by the way MJ has nothing to do with 959 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:36,220 the mj-12 documents make sure we 960 00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:37,930 understand that we were talking about 961 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:41,920 MUFON and so you mentioned that you had 962 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:44,410 recently resigned now I saw before it 963 00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:46,690 vanished there were a number of comments 964 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:50,470 to the directors of MUFON x' message tis 965 00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:54,970 his non apology and you announced that 966 00:42:01,590 --> 00:41:58,090 you would be stepping down unless steps 967 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:01,600 were taken and before i'd let you pick 968 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:04,090 up from there apparently a john venturi 969 00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:06,430 at least from what I understand there 970 00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:08,110 had been a number of problems I remember 971 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:10,480 when he claimed the missing Malaysian 972 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:13,570 airliner was abducted by aliens and he 973 00:42:19,410 --> 00:42:16,330 seemed insensitive to the fact that that 974 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:19,420 could offend the families of the victims 975 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:22,450 and it just seems to me like hid the 976 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:24,490 fact that he was still with MUFON was a 977 00:42:28,740 --> 00:42:26,530 symptom of a problem and it was only 978 00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:28,750 this issue that brought things to a head 979 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:32,320 yeah in the the situation with John 980 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:36,450 venturi was really I think from MUFON 981 00:42:40,890 --> 00:42:38,530 it's it's tough to find the words here 982 00:42:45,150 --> 00:42:40,900 it really did I think a lot of damage 983 00:42:47,340 --> 00:42:45,160 for them only because I think in general 984 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:47,350 and I'm speaking in general here because 985 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:48,430 I think we can find examples of people 986 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:50,410 who definitely don't follow this sort of 987 00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:53,290 ideology but I think in general people 988 00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:56,470 who exist within sort of the UFO culture 989 00:43:00,420 --> 00:42:58,810 right the UFO community there are 990 00:43:03,090 --> 00:43:00,430 generally sort of forward-thinking 991 00:43:04,530 --> 00:43:03,100 people I mean yeah I have to be honest 992 00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:04,540 if you sort of believe that there's 993 00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:07,390 aliens out there or if you believe 994 00:43:11,670 --> 00:43:09,280 there's you know interdimensional beings 995 00:43:13,950 --> 00:43:11,680 or beings of light or you believe in 996 00:43:16,830 --> 00:43:13,960 sort of the the mysticism of the UFO 997 00:43:18,690 --> 00:43:16,840 issue or whatever you know typically 998 00:43:20,970 --> 00:43:18,700 it's difficult to then sort of be racist 999 00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:20,980 you know what I mean like how can how 1000 00:43:24,250 --> 00:43:22,660 can you be you you have a issue with 1001 00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:24,260 with with 1002 00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:25,430 they're human beings when you know you 1003 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:28,280 have this belief system in some sort of 1004 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:30,290 intelligent other that isn't human right 1005 00:43:33,790 --> 00:43:32,090 and for sure you know you're always 1006 00:43:36,340 --> 00:43:33,800 gonna have people within a community 1007 00:43:38,350 --> 00:43:36,350 that differ from this norm but I think 1008 00:43:41,590 --> 00:43:38,360 the norm predominantly free sort of 1009 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:41,600 people within the UFO community is sort 1010 00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:43,270 of they're they're typically progressive 1011 00:43:48,250 --> 00:43:46,190 they're typically you know a little more 1012 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:48,260 liberal leaning typically a little more 1013 00:43:51,370 --> 00:43:50,570 left-wing because again you know they 1014 00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:51,380 believe in aliens 1015 00:43:58,450 --> 00:43:55,310 I think Ventre and his comments and then 1016 00:44:00,430 --> 00:43:58,460 sort of move on standing not standing by 1017 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:00,440 him in a sense but they did they did it 1018 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:03,170 yet by standing by Ventre they 1019 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:05,330 definitely you know to find it to find 1020 00:44:09,580 --> 00:44:06,650 it better where they alienated a 1021 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:09,590 significant portion of sort of the UFO 1022 00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:11,810 community especially those who are who 1023 00:44:16,660 --> 00:44:13,760 are sort of a little more left-of-centre 1024 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:16,670 you know freedom of speech is a 1025 00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:18,710 wonderful thing but people are still 1026 00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:20,320 going to take offense to what you say 1027 00:44:24,970 --> 00:44:22,430 especially in a public atmosphere like 1028 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:24,980 that and you know ultimately I think the 1029 00:44:31,630 --> 00:44:29,330 director of MUFON he sort of bungled it 1030 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:31,640 a little bit when he kind of called 1031 00:44:36,580 --> 00:44:34,490 everyone who was attacking Ventre for 1032 00:44:38,770 --> 00:44:36,590 his racist comments and basically 1033 00:44:40,450 --> 00:44:38,780 calling him out on being a racist when 1034 00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:40,460 he sort of referred to all of those 1035 00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:44,480 people as haters um you know Harsin is 1036 00:44:49,330 --> 00:44:46,820 ultimately then he's not necessary 1037 00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:49,340 supporting Venturi in his comments and 1038 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:51,520 I'm sure mr. Carson is is not a racist 1039 00:44:58,720 --> 00:44:56,170 but why would you sort of defend him in 1040 00:45:00,520 --> 00:44:58,730 openly like that and then not only say 1041 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:00,530 you know we apologize for asked like he 1042 00:45:04,180 --> 00:45:01,970 didn't say we apologize for his comments 1043 00:45:05,650 --> 00:45:04,190 and then he moved on to then say you 1044 00:45:07,810 --> 00:45:05,660 know all of you who have problems with 1045 00:45:10,450 --> 00:45:07,820 him are haters you know so he sort of 1046 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:10,460 did the double the double sin here of 1047 00:45:14,350 --> 00:45:12,890 you know PR which is a shame because I 1048 00:45:15,850 --> 00:45:14,360 mean mufon just paid a whole lot of 1049 00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:15,860 money to a PR firm to change their image 1050 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:17,150 and I'm just wondering you know what 1051 00:45:19,890 --> 00:45:18,170 they spent all that money on because 1052 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:19,900 they apparently didn't do a great job 1053 00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:22,610 you know training mr. Harrison on what 1054 00:45:26,410 --> 00:45:24,860 to say in a situation like this you know 1055 00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:26,420 I just wonder how much money they're 1056 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:29,320 wasting for a PR firm supposedly they're 1057 00:45:34,390 --> 00:45:31,730 using their money other than paying 1058 00:45:36,340 --> 00:45:34,400 their executives and publishing the 1059 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:36,350 magazine and all that stuff they're 1060 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:38,090 using the money you give 1061 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:41,570 do UFO research not hire PR firms 1062 00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:45,370 because remember PR firms aren't cheap 1063 00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:48,950 no they certainly are not and and they 1064 00:45:52,810 --> 00:45:50,750 burn money fast you know that's the 1065 00:45:57,730 --> 00:45:52,820 other thing you don't get a lot for the 1066 00:45:58,720 --> 00:45:57,740 money that you do spend yeah sorry what 1067 00:45:59,050 --> 00:45:58,730 somebody gonna say something I just 1068 00:46:02,620 --> 00:45:59,060 heard 1069 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:02,630 oh no but let's finish the thought with 1070 00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:05,570 so how did how did you break with MUFON 1071 00:46:11,890 --> 00:46:09,140 come to me um you know it definitely did 1072 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:11,900 have um it definitely did have a lot to 1073 00:46:19,330 --> 00:46:13,850 do with this situation I you know again 1074 00:46:21,070 --> 00:46:19,340 I'm Canadian so you know the whole 1075 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:21,080 population of Canada leans slightly 1076 00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:23,570 left-of-center compared to you know the 1077 00:46:30,490 --> 00:46:27,350 United States but so for me you know 1078 00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:30,500 that was definitely one aspect of my 1079 00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:32,630 sort of separation from MUFON I think I 1080 00:46:36,190 --> 00:46:34,640 also have ideological problems with 1081 00:46:37,570 --> 00:46:36,200 MUFON I think you know Kurt you ask sort 1082 00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:37,580 of before you know about the field 1083 00:46:40,830 --> 00:46:38,960 investigators manual and how it sort of 1084 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:40,840 differs from my philosophy in a sense 1085 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:44,090 and I think that you know MUFON has been 1086 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:47,450 operating you know just for quite some 1087 00:46:53,590 --> 00:46:51,410 time and and it hasn't really that it 1088 00:46:57,390 --> 00:46:53,600 doesn't have sort of much to show for 1089 00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:57,400 itself um so I think that that is one 1090 00:47:02,590 --> 00:47:01,040 issue I have I think that you know for 1091 00:47:05,950 --> 00:47:02,600 something that has been existence for as 1092 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:05,960 long as it has been to not you know to 1093 00:47:09,460 --> 00:47:07,250 not to be able to sort of provide you 1094 00:47:12,250 --> 00:47:09,470 know this is why you know MUFON exists 1095 00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:12,260 they they can't really give us sort of 1096 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:15,110 these this these unbelievable case that 1097 00:47:18,460 --> 00:47:16,610 they've investigated and have sort of 1098 00:47:21,310 --> 00:47:18,470 proven that something strange is going 1099 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:21,320 on beyond the shadow of a doubt and 1100 00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:22,610 that's really the whole UFO discourse 1101 00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:23,870 overall you know there is no evidence 1102 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:26,060 for anything really but I guess there's 1103 00:47:31,330 --> 00:47:28,850 pieces but you MUFON hasn't really 1104 00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:31,340 achieved greatness and they've had a lot 1105 00:47:36,190 --> 00:47:33,710 of time to do it and and it's almost 1106 00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:36,200 feel like MUFON is sort of shrinking 1107 00:47:40,930 --> 00:47:39,680 rather than than growing and I think you 1108 00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:40,940 know I I don't know the numbers on the 1109 00:47:47,110 --> 00:47:43,430 most recent sort of symposium from 2016 1110 00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:47,120 but you know our numbers down you know 1111 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:49,760 if they are I think this is just sort of 1112 00:47:53,529 --> 00:47:51,410 evidence of 1113 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:53,539 sort of move on shrinking I know they 1114 00:47:59,650 --> 00:47:55,690 struggle to find field investigators and 1115 00:48:01,390 --> 00:47:59,660 especially in Canada so because no one's 1116 00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:01,400 heard of them but um you know I think 1117 00:48:06,339 --> 00:48:03,920 that that's kind of one problem I had 1118 00:48:10,059 --> 00:48:06,349 with it I also have a problem with the 1119 00:48:13,779 --> 00:48:10,069 fact that MUFON currently does not know 1120 00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:13,789 itself it was a scientific organization 1121 00:48:18,819 --> 00:48:15,710 it touts itself as a scientific 1122 00:48:21,970 --> 00:48:18,829 organization but it does everything but 1123 00:48:24,010 --> 00:48:21,980 being a scientific organization and I 1124 00:48:25,630 --> 00:48:24,020 think the most recent topic that it's 1125 00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:25,640 being that's hosting at the symposium 1126 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:27,049 this series I think the secret space 1127 00:48:34,210 --> 00:48:31,010 program and and I would argue as a 1128 00:48:36,430 --> 00:48:34,220 scientific organization you know where 1129 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:36,440 is this data coming from like where is 1130 00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:38,089 the science behind the secret space 1131 00:48:42,970 --> 00:48:39,680 program that you're presenting on or 1132 00:48:44,289 --> 00:48:42,980 where is the facts where is the smoking 1133 00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,299 gun evidence that suggests there is a 1134 00:48:52,089 --> 00:48:46,880 secret space program apart from just 1135 00:48:55,329 --> 00:48:52,099 kind of the typical UFO sort of people 1136 00:48:57,819 --> 00:48:55,339 who sort of who just pitch ideas you 1137 00:49:00,519 --> 00:48:57,829 know and take these leaps of logic from 1138 00:49:02,890 --> 00:49:00,529 you know a simple you know conspiracy to 1139 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:02,900 you know we're building massive space 1140 00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:04,730 stations and we're and we're using you 1141 00:49:09,339 --> 00:49:06,710 know a reversed alien technology to 1142 00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:09,349 build ships and so again you know I 1143 00:49:15,940 --> 00:49:12,559 struggle with move funds inability to to 1144 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:15,950 find its place within the UFO community 1145 00:49:22,029 --> 00:49:19,130 it's kind of all over the world right 1146 00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:22,039 now and are all over the place rather 1147 00:49:28,779 --> 00:49:27,049 and it it can't it just can't focus on 1148 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:28,789 on what it needs to do and I think 1149 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:31,130 that's a problem the thing I see with 1150 00:49:36,279 --> 00:49:33,650 MUFON is when they hold these symposiums 1151 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:36,289 and this is true also with the state 1152 00:49:43,089 --> 00:49:40,010 directors and the local sessions what 1153 00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:43,099 they are doing is filling seats that's 1154 00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:45,440 the main focus let's get whacky guest 1155 00:49:50,529 --> 00:49:47,569 doesn't matter we're not going to vet 1156 00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:50,539 them I'll give you one example here some 1157 00:49:56,170 --> 00:49:53,599 time back to three years ago was looking 1158 00:49:58,599 --> 00:49:56,180 for guests and had a MUFON State 1159 00:50:00,579 --> 00:49:58,609 Director I think from Missouri and if 1160 00:50:04,049 --> 00:50:00,589 I'm wrong you know shoot me later 1161 00:50:06,569 --> 00:50:04,059 so she's mentioning 1162 00:50:09,359 --> 00:50:06,579 this forthcoming meeting I said sure go 1163 00:50:11,609 --> 00:50:09,369 ahead and she's going to have Michael 1164 00:50:15,209 --> 00:50:11,619 horn on and he's the American 1165 00:50:17,370 --> 00:50:15,219 representative for Billy Mayer right and 1166 00:50:20,219 --> 00:50:17,380 I said you know who Billy Mayer is do 1167 00:50:23,339 --> 00:50:20,229 you know anything about it no and I sent 1168 00:50:30,349 --> 00:50:23,349 her a bunch of information and Michael 1169 00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:30,359 horn to her credit was disinvited now 1170 00:50:36,420 --> 00:50:34,089 this is the problem they'll bring people 1171 00:50:38,579 --> 00:50:36,430 into some of these sessions and it's 1172 00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:38,589 certainly true with the National 1173 00:50:45,949 --> 00:50:41,829 Conference they don't care whether these 1174 00:50:48,779 --> 00:50:45,959 people have solid information to offer 1175 00:50:51,269 --> 00:50:48,789 it's a commercial enterprise the same 1176 00:50:54,420 --> 00:50:51,279 thing with a hangar one TV show where 1177 00:50:57,269 --> 00:50:54,430 hangar 1 was as reality shows go 1178 00:51:00,289 --> 00:50:57,279 probably worse than many because it 1179 00:51:04,170 --> 00:51:00,299 pointed to alleged evidence and 1180 00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:04,180 documents that did not exist I know 1181 00:51:09,959 --> 00:51:07,569 we've had stories on the show here about 1182 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:09,969 the UFO Hunters show which was on for a 1183 00:51:15,779 --> 00:51:12,729 couple of years and featured bill burns 1184 00:51:18,539 --> 00:51:15,789 late of UFO magazine and the co-author 1185 00:51:22,380 --> 00:51:18,549 of the day after Roswell with Colonel 1186 00:51:24,359 --> 00:51:22,390 Philip Corso and you know he's a good 1187 00:51:28,739 --> 00:51:24,369 storyteller I hope to have him back on 1188 00:51:31,319 --> 00:51:28,749 he's a lot of fun but this show was 1189 00:51:33,089 --> 00:51:31,329 nonsensical they'd have a real case and 1190 00:51:34,279 --> 00:51:33,099 then they'd go off the deep end we've 1191 00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:34,289 got more to come 1192 00:51:39,299 --> 00:51:38,079 MJ Ben is not all about MUFON we're 1193 00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:39,309 going to get off at the moment 1194 00:51:49,930 --> 00:51:41,920 Kirk Collins is our guest co-host you're 1195 00:51:49,940 --> 00:51:54,950 thank you for listening to GCN 1196 00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:00,829 visit GC and live.com today ray Perkins 1197 00:52:05,890 --> 00:52:03,240 a reclusive veteran burned out from the 1198 00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:05,900 Gulf War lives tortured by relentless 1199 00:52:11,150 --> 00:52:08,940 perplexing nightmares nightmares of a 1200 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:11,160 horrific battle in deep space and of a 1201 00:52:16,130 --> 00:52:13,410 mysterious woman suffering an agony for 1202 00:52:19,870 --> 00:52:16,140 her devastated world a woman not yet 1203 00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:19,880 born calling across centuries to him 1204 00:52:25,970 --> 00:52:23,280 then a coincidence leads into his 1205 00:52:29,060 --> 00:52:25,980 destiny his chance to alter the universe 1206 00:52:30,770 --> 00:52:29,070 attacked of the rötteln rock the former 1207 00:52:33,620 --> 00:52:30,780 fiction editor for Star Wars and Indiana 1208 00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,630 Jones Robert Simpson writes the soul of 1209 00:52:37,370 --> 00:52:35,760 the novel attack of the rockets lies in 1210 00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:37,380 its heart and passion for building a 1211 00:52:42,410 --> 00:52:39,359 convincing tale of a love that spans the 1212 00:52:45,290 --> 00:52:42,420 galaxy a thrilling story attack of the 1213 00:52:47,089 --> 00:52:45,300 rock oils is available now read a simple 1214 00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,099 chapter and get a special discount off 1215 00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:49,440 of the cover price at our website Rocko 1216 00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:54,720 is calm that's our Ock o IDs calm attack 1217 00:53:02,359 --> 00:52:57,810 of the Rockland rock an Avila Nagrand 1218 00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:02,369 science fiction tradition be prepared 1219 00:53:07,099 --> 00:53:04,740 for the next disaster with the shelter 1220 00:53:09,260 --> 00:53:07,109 pod the shelter pod is a large all 1221 00:53:11,420 --> 00:53:09,270 season heavy duty quick deploy shelter 1222 00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,430 the shelter pod system can be set up in 1223 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:13,680 30 seconds and includes an emergency 1224 00:53:18,109 --> 00:53:15,930 medical kit water filter survival tools 1225 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:18,119 and more are you prepared to take care 1226 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:20,130 of your family do you have everything in 1227 00:53:24,050 --> 00:53:22,290 one place ready to go get it now or 1228 00:53:26,570 --> 00:53:24,060 enter to win a complete shelter pod 1229 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:26,580 system at shelter pod calm the shelter 1230 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:29,490 pod at shelter pod calm shelter when you 1231 00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:30,410 need it most 1232 00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:33,180 if these uncertain times it makes sense 1233 00:53:36,829 --> 00:53:34,920 to have a sustainable backup method to 1234 00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:36,839 cook food and boil water if your current 1235 00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:38,880 plan includes using a fuel burning stove 1236 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:40,740 or cooking over an open fire then 1237 00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:42,570 there's a much better way the Minuteman 1238 00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:44,310 rocket stove is a biomass burning 1239 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:46,500 cooking stove that only requires small 1240 00:53:50,270 --> 00:53:48,450 quantities of sticks and twigs for fuel 1241 00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:50,280 the Minuteman stove is easy to use 1242 00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:52,020 smokeless portable powerful and 1243 00:53:55,820 --> 00:53:54,000 sustainable for the finest and survival 1244 00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:55,830 cooking stoves and fire starters made 1245 00:54:07,980 --> 00:53:57,930 right here in the USA go to Minuteman 1246 00:54:16,020 --> 00:54:11,680 welcome back to the para cast the gold 1247 00:54:24,610 --> 00:54:16,030 standard of paranormal radio and now 1248 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:24,620 here's Jane Steinberg sakra sir Brian's 1249 00:54:34,420 --> 00:54:28,450 on his way as we speak to the Utah fest 1250 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:34,430 MJ bond is former investigator for MUFON 1251 00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:37,610 Curt Collins our guest co-host now let 1252 00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:41,110 me ask you this too so mu Fonz 1253 00:54:46,330 --> 00:54:43,520 questionnaire their training materials 1254 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:46,340 they're looking for solid objects they 1255 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:48,490 don't pay attention to the witness at 1256 00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:51,650 all am I wrong about that that's my 1257 00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:54,650 perception I think in the MUFON field 1258 00:54:58,690 --> 00:54:56,570 investigators manual I think it's it's 1259 00:55:00,940 --> 00:54:58,700 primarily looking at the UFO question 1260 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:00,950 definitely from a nuts-and-bolts 1261 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:03,770 perspective right if we sort of look at 1262 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:05,450 you know all of UFO discourse we can 1263 00:55:08,620 --> 00:55:06,770 sort of put on a spectrum and I think 1264 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:08,630 sort of on opposite ends of the spectrum 1265 00:55:13,390 --> 00:55:11,330 you sort of have the the yeah the nuts 1266 00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:13,400 and bolts you know aliens who are made 1267 00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:15,110 out of meat like you and me and they hop 1268 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:16,280 on their spaceships and they fly around 1269 00:55:18,730 --> 00:55:17,810 in their in their metal machines right 1270 00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:18,740 and then there's sort of the other side 1271 00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:21,020 right the more mystical side of the UFO 1272 00:55:24,970 --> 00:55:22,510 experience right that people have the 1273 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:24,980 sort of the interdimensional Xand light 1274 00:55:29,410 --> 00:55:27,050 beings and and all that 1275 00:55:32,220 --> 00:55:29,420 I think MUFON definitely focuses and 1276 00:55:35,530 --> 00:55:32,230 caters towards this more nuts and bolts 1277 00:55:41,410 --> 00:55:35,540 ideology it really focuses on sort of 1278 00:55:44,020 --> 00:55:41,420 this otherworldly aspect as if you know 1279 00:55:47,830 --> 00:55:44,030 it knows that these crafts are from 1280 00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:47,840 another planet versus something else so 1281 00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:49,760 I I definitely think that's that's part 1282 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:51,920 of it I think once you kind of get into 1283 00:55:57,580 --> 00:55:54,650 the nuts and bolts side of things I 1284 00:56:02,160 --> 00:55:57,590 think the witness does become less 1285 00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:02,170 important only because the witness saw 1286 00:56:06,910 --> 00:56:05,270 allegedly and objective object right 1287 00:56:08,290 --> 00:56:06,920 something that exists sort of within 1288 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:08,300 space and time just like your coffee 1289 00:56:12,330 --> 00:56:11,330 table exists within space and time so so 1290 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:12,340 you know 1291 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:15,050 MUFON doesn't rely it does rely on the 1292 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:16,250 witness monopolise have to interview 1293 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:17,330 them and you obviously have to sort of 1294 00:56:23,810 --> 00:56:20,250 put your time in with them but the wit 1295 00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:23,820 experience perhaps on the maybe on the 1296 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:26,940 more spiritual or mystical side is not a 1297 00:56:31,580 --> 00:56:30,210 key factor here at least I think sort of 1298 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:31,590 not in the field investigators manual 1299 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:33,930 and maybe not officially but again the 1300 00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:35,970 MUFON has kind of gone down this road 1301 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:38,700 and and you know like you said earlier 1302 00:56:43,970 --> 00:56:41,850 to put bums and seats there might need 1303 00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:43,980 to be more catering to this other side 1304 00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:46,680 this more mystical aspect of the UFO 1305 00:56:52,970 --> 00:56:50,970 question so again this is where I I take 1306 00:56:55,220 --> 00:56:52,980 issue with MUFON is is it's trying I 1307 00:56:59,780 --> 00:56:55,230 think to play both both sides here I 1308 00:57:01,280 --> 00:56:59,790 think it's trying to say you know we we 1309 00:57:02,990 --> 00:57:01,290 want to deal with the nuts and bolts 1310 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:03,000 question we want to investigate the nuts 1311 00:57:06,620 --> 00:57:05,130 and bolts question of the of UFOs but we 1312 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:06,630 also you know want to deal with this 1313 00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:07,890 mystical aspect of it this 1314 00:57:10,940 --> 00:57:09,660 interdimensional potentially this you 1315 00:57:14,540 --> 00:57:10,950 know universal consciousness or whatever 1316 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:14,550 the problem is once you start saying 1317 00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:16,170 that you know you believe in everything 1318 00:57:21,770 --> 00:57:17,910 ultimately you end up believing in 1319 00:57:25,550 --> 00:57:21,780 nothing and you you cast this massive 1320 00:57:27,050 --> 00:57:25,560 net and clearly the people who sort of 1321 00:57:29,570 --> 00:57:27,060 have a brain are going to look at this 1322 00:57:32,090 --> 00:57:29,580 and say okay well now what do you stand 1323 00:57:34,250 --> 00:57:32,100 for now right because you know as 1324 00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:34,260 someone who exists within the UFO 1325 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:36,570 culture within the UFO community you 1326 00:57:39,170 --> 00:57:38,130 know you're gonna pick an ideology right 1327 00:57:40,730 --> 00:57:39,180 you're gonna sit there and you're gonna 1328 00:57:43,490 --> 00:57:40,740 say you know I believe it's this or I 1329 00:57:45,050 --> 00:57:43,500 believe it's that and and MUFON is 1330 00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:45,060 saying well we sort of believe in 1331 00:57:49,220 --> 00:57:47,430 everything um you know maybe 1332 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:49,230 unofficially but it is starting to kind 1333 00:57:54,110 --> 00:57:52,290 of go that route so this is why sort of 1334 00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:54,120 my my problem exists with MUFON is again 1335 00:58:00,170 --> 00:57:57,690 it's it's it's leaving sort of what it's 1336 00:58:03,550 --> 00:58:00,180 good at and and sort of maybe what it's 1337 00:58:06,380 --> 00:58:03,560 sort of tried to build and and it's now 1338 00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:06,390 abandoning that for for other things and 1339 00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:08,160 again potentially for money potentially 1340 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:09,990 put bums and seats potentially to make 1341 00:58:15,740 --> 00:58:11,450 television shows which are questionable 1342 00:58:18,260 --> 00:58:15,750 and I think this is sort of mu Fonz sort 1343 00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:18,270 of current gig that's not to say that I 1344 00:58:21,350 --> 00:58:20,310 have a problem with the nuts and bolts 1345 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:21,360 question nor do I have a problem with 1346 00:58:25,790 --> 00:58:23,730 mystical sort of side of the UFO 1347 00:58:28,070 --> 00:58:25,800 question I think the UFO discourse 1348 00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,080 overall the entire UFO subculture is 1349 00:58:34,010 --> 00:58:31,920 very democratized it's very open to 1350 00:58:35,420 --> 00:58:34,020 significant interpretation 1351 00:58:38,090 --> 00:58:35,430 and really there is no right answer 1352 00:58:40,790 --> 00:58:38,100 right now there's no evidence to support 1353 00:58:42,590 --> 00:58:40,800 a right answer so I'm not gonna sit here 1354 00:58:44,180 --> 00:58:42,600 and say all the people who believe in 1355 00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:44,190 interdimensional beings and all the 1356 00:58:48,260 --> 00:58:46,140 people who have mystical alien contact 1357 00:58:50,420 --> 00:58:48,270 experiences or whatever I'm not gonna 1358 00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:50,430 say they're wrong I have no evidence to 1359 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:51,900 suggest that they're wrong I can't 1360 00:58:55,730 --> 00:58:53,850 disprove anything that they've sort of 1361 00:58:58,520 --> 00:58:55,740 are telling me does it sound a little 1362 00:59:00,380 --> 00:58:58,530 kooky sure but you know a lot of things 1363 00:59:03,170 --> 00:59:00,390 are kooky I'm also not going to discount 1364 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:03,180 the nuts and bolts sort of more 1365 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:06,690 scientifically minded UFO investigators 1366 00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:08,850 or UFO sort of researchers again you 1367 00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:10,290 know they have no evidence to support 1368 00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:12,240 their claims either they have just as 1369 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:14,130 much evidence as sort of the kooky UFO 1370 00:59:17,750 --> 00:59:16,890 mystics so I'm not gonna throw that baby 1371 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:17,760 out with the bathwater 1372 00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:20,970 either I think for me personally just at 1373 00:59:24,109 --> 00:59:22,920 the UFO wise I'm a bit of an agnostic I 1374 00:59:27,380 --> 00:59:24,119 don't know what I believe 1375 00:59:30,050 --> 00:59:27,390 um and and I can argue sort of both 1376 00:59:31,970 --> 00:59:30,060 sides I can provide and I can probably 1377 00:59:33,770 --> 00:59:31,980 argue for four reasons why you don't 1378 00:59:34,850 --> 00:59:33,780 nuts and bolts is better than mystical 1379 00:59:36,140 --> 00:59:34,860 and then I can probably argue for why 1380 00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:36,150 mystical is probably better than nuts 1381 00:59:41,210 --> 00:59:38,760 and bolts and so I choose to sort of 1382 00:59:42,290 --> 00:59:41,220 remain agnostic in this and and you know 1383 00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:42,300 I don't want to sort of come off 1384 00:59:47,150 --> 00:59:44,640 sounding like I'm some you know debunk 1385 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:47,160 or jerk because I'm not I will listen to 1386 00:59:50,510 --> 00:59:48,330 anyone and I will 1387 00:59:51,470 --> 00:59:50,520 you know gladly hear your story and I'll 1388 00:59:55,820 --> 00:59:51,480 and I'll gladly 1389 00:59:59,120 --> 00:59:55,830 you know I'll gladly take in sort of 1390 01:00:00,740 --> 00:59:59,130 what you have to say um where I draw the 1391 01:00:02,810 --> 01:00:00,750 line is where people tell me they know 1392 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:02,820 things right like this is a fact they 1393 01:00:07,849 --> 01:00:04,770 would say I know this is real because 1394 01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:07,859 you know X well if X isn't good enough 1395 01:00:11,870 --> 01:00:10,380 I'm gonna sort of draw the line like 1396 01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:11,880 okay well hold on that's not a fact 1397 01:00:17,530 --> 01:00:13,710 that's that's your opinion or that's 1398 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:17,540 your hypothesis or that's a theory ish 1399 01:00:21,830 --> 01:00:19,770 but it's nothing more than that like you 1400 01:00:24,530 --> 01:00:21,840 don't have the hard data to support your 1401 01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:24,540 your claim here so ultimately some of 1402 01:00:27,890 --> 01:00:26,130 this stuff you have to kind of take with 1403 01:00:30,349 --> 01:00:27,900 you know it's a story or it's an 1404 01:00:33,340 --> 01:00:30,359 anecdote and that's fine but make sure 1405 01:00:35,690 --> 01:00:33,350 you admit that sort of coming in don't 1406 01:00:37,609 --> 01:00:35,700 sit there and tell me it's real sorry go 1407 01:00:39,260 --> 01:00:37,619 ahead I'll say just one thing about 1408 01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:39,270 MUFON which I mentioned before and we'll 1409 01:00:45,470 --> 01:00:42,510 go on and that is that MUFON spin round 1410 01:00:46,329 --> 01:00:45,480 since 1969 was originally a splinter 1411 01:00:50,140 --> 01:00:46,339 group 1412 01:00:53,019 --> 01:00:50,150 right let's split off from a pro this is 1413 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:53,029 crow and Jim Lorenz in this group and I 1414 01:00:56,259 --> 01:00:54,650 know that quarrel Lorenz it was kind of 1415 01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:56,269 a difficult person to get along with so 1416 01:00:59,890 --> 01:00:58,130 maybe that's a reason to personality 1417 01:01:05,319 --> 01:00:59,900 there it was originally going to be a 1418 01:01:08,499 --> 01:01:05,329 Midwest UFO group okay Midwest UFO 1419 01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:08,509 network and then later on became mutual 1420 01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:11,089 because Midwest was restrictive and of 1421 01:01:16,509 --> 01:01:13,880 MUFON let's look at your chapter for 1422 01:01:21,209 --> 01:01:16,519 UFOs reframing the debate it's called 1423 01:01:25,449 --> 01:01:21,219 UFOs and modern capitalism dissent 1424 01:01:27,759 --> 01:01:25,459 disenfranchisement and the fringe now I 1425 01:01:29,890 --> 01:01:27,769 wanted to ask you one particular thing 1426 01:01:32,620 --> 01:01:29,900 in the chapter and this gets the 1427 01:01:34,359 --> 01:01:32,630 paragraph two and I want to start this 1428 01:01:37,779 --> 01:01:34,369 off because it sounds to me interesting 1429 01:01:41,170 --> 01:01:37,789 as I was drafting this essay I was 1430 01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:41,180 reminded of John Carpenter's satirical 1431 01:01:48,239 --> 01:01:45,170 sci-fi film they live that's from 1988 1432 01:01:50,229 --> 01:01:48,249 in which drifter John nada or Naida 1433 01:01:53,349 --> 01:01:50,239 they'll remember how it was pronounced 1434 01:01:54,549 --> 01:01:53,359 nada it's not a John nada played by 1435 01:01:56,349 --> 01:01:54,559 Roddy Piper 1436 01:01:58,120 --> 01:01:56,359 that's the Rustler by the way I think 1437 01:02:00,729 --> 01:01:58,130 he's dead now but he's arrest the one 1438 01:02:03,009 --> 01:02:00,739 that he was trying to do what of course 1439 01:02:06,219 --> 01:02:03,019 Dwayne Johnson did successfully become a 1440 01:02:09,339 --> 01:02:06,229 actor stumbles upon sunglasses that 1441 01:02:10,439 --> 01:02:09,349 allow him to see the world for what it 1442 01:02:14,140 --> 01:02:10,449 truly is 1443 01:02:16,689 --> 01:02:14,150 tell us why are you using this film 1444 01:02:21,339 --> 01:02:16,699 aunts influence in connection with this 1445 01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:21,349 chapter sure so I think when we sort of 1446 01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:23,209 look at the world around us and more 1447 01:02:25,929 --> 01:02:24,529 importantly it will not warm Prime but 1448 01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:25,939 more specifically when we look at the 1449 01:02:32,410 --> 01:02:28,910 UFO question it is fundamentally 1450 01:02:35,919 --> 01:02:32,420 governed by ideology it's it's the UFO 1451 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:35,929 debate the UFO phenomenon is is a 1452 01:02:43,599 --> 01:02:39,890 phenomenon of sort of belief and it's a 1453 01:02:46,809 --> 01:02:43,609 phenomenon of sort of different sort of 1454 01:02:50,229 --> 01:02:46,819 human constructed sort of constructs and 1455 01:02:54,039 --> 01:02:50,239 mechanisms and ideologies and in the 1456 01:02:56,259 --> 01:02:54,049 film they live john nada put finds he 1457 01:02:59,890 --> 01:02:56,269 sunglass and he puts them on and and the 1458 01:03:00,400 --> 01:02:59,900 sunglasses show him sort of the reality 1459 01:03:04,420 --> 01:03:00,410 behind 1460 01:03:06,190 --> 01:03:04,430 the illusion they show him that you know 1461 01:03:08,350 --> 01:03:06,200 his world is sort of being governed by 1462 01:03:10,270 --> 01:03:08,360 this alien race that is sort of 1463 01:03:13,450 --> 01:03:10,280 stripping the planet of its resources 1464 01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:13,460 and sort of shipping it offworld back to 1465 01:03:18,820 --> 01:03:16,160 sort of their own home world and they're 1466 01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:18,830 basically sort of robbing um humanity 1467 01:03:22,330 --> 01:03:20,930 without humanity knowing and these 1468 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:22,340 aliens have sort of placed themselves 1469 01:03:24,970 --> 01:03:23,810 and in positions of power and they're 1470 01:03:27,310 --> 01:03:24,980 sort of the President of the United 1471 01:03:29,710 --> 01:03:27,320 States they're in various sort of 1472 01:03:31,450 --> 01:03:29,720 they're CEOs of major banks of major oil 1473 01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:31,460 companies weapons manufacturers whatever 1474 01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:32,930 they're sort of the people within the 1475 01:03:36,850 --> 01:03:35,330 corridors of power and then there's sort 1476 01:03:38,530 --> 01:03:36,860 of these they're these perfect 1477 01:03:40,780 --> 01:03:38,540 capitalists right and they sort of strip 1478 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:40,790 the planet of everything and they ship 1479 01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:43,250 it back home let's continue 1480 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:46,190 jace the philosophy behind the movie 1481 01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:48,370 they live MJ banais 1482 01:03:58,930 --> 01:03:52,130 Jean Steinberg Collins you're in the 1483 01:04:03,140 --> 01:04:01,400 attack of the rock AIDS has been 1484 01:04:05,060 --> 01:04:03,150 well-received by critics and readers 1485 01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:05,070 alike it's a thrill a minute story 1486 01:04:10,250 --> 01:04:07,920 you'll never forget a former US military 1487 01:04:12,530 --> 01:04:10,260 intelligence officer is haunted by 1488 01:04:15,170 --> 01:04:12,540 intense dreams about a beautiful woman 1489 01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:15,180 pleading for his help after a terrible 1490 01:04:20,060 --> 01:04:17,940 battle in outer space but the dreams 1491 01:04:22,010 --> 01:04:20,070 turn out to be true and thrust him into 1492 01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:22,020 a telepathic love affair with a woman 1493 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:24,750 whose faraway planet is intent on 1494 01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:27,090 destroying the earth and now the 1495 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:29,910 gripping tale continues in the coming of 1496 01:04:34,970 --> 01:04:32,370 the protectors it's the second book of 1497 01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:34,980 the rock oyster elegy a galaxy spanning 1498 01:04:40,190 --> 01:04:37,170 adventure that pits our hapless heroes 1499 01:04:42,050 --> 01:04:40,200 against powerful fanatical enemies that 1500 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:42,060 threaten the lives of freedom loving 1501 01:04:47,470 --> 01:04:44,730 beings everywhere attack of the rock 1502 01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:47,480 ODEs and the coming of the protectors 1503 01:04:53,090 --> 01:04:50,220 classic science fiction at its best 1504 01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:53,100 available now for more details visit 1505 01:05:01,700 --> 01:04:59,280 Rocko Escom that are Ock o IDs com it's 1506 01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:01,710 been said any society is only three 1507 01:05:06,530 --> 01:05:04,200 missed meals away from chaos those times 1508 01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:06,540 may 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01:08:36,690 --> 01:08:33,430 a little bit about his contribution 1592 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:36,700 later I'm looking at a chapter subheads 1593 01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:38,890 like going down the rabbit hole so we 1594 01:08:43,190 --> 01:08:40,420 have a situation here where it's almost 1595 01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:43,200 like a secret government run by aliens 1596 01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:46,270 controlling everything and you know in 1597 01:08:51,780 --> 01:08:49,089 reality now they actually have theories 1598 01:08:54,420 --> 01:08:51,790 that there's a secret world government 1599 01:08:57,140 --> 01:08:54,430 going on and they could be called the 1600 01:09:01,860 --> 01:08:57,150 international bankers or Illuminati 1601 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:01,870 but John Carpenter puts this in the 1602 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:04,810 hands of aliens but how different is 1603 01:09:09,900 --> 01:09:07,650 that from what we sometimes see as a 1604 01:09:13,230 --> 01:09:09,910 conspiracy theory about how the world is 1605 01:09:18,660 --> 01:09:13,240 run and and this is sort of I think the 1606 01:09:20,730 --> 01:09:18,670 point of the of my essay I um when when 1607 01:09:22,770 --> 01:09:20,740 I thought about they live um you know 1608 01:09:24,660 --> 01:09:22,780 you have this man who's who finds these 1609 01:09:27,539 --> 01:09:24,670 sort of magic sunglasses that that allow 1610 01:09:31,020 --> 01:09:27,549 him to see that the truth I guess behind 1611 01:09:33,059 --> 01:09:31,030 the lie shortly after the deception the 1612 01:09:34,260 --> 01:09:33,069 section that you read I sort of 1613 01:09:37,020 --> 01:09:34,270 explained you know ultimately there are 1614 01:09:39,559 --> 01:09:37,030 no sunglasses we cannot pierce sort of 1615 01:09:43,650 --> 01:09:39,569 the veil of our own ideology we can't 1616 01:09:45,510 --> 01:09:43,660 leave the environment we live and we 1617 01:09:47,190 --> 01:09:45,520 can't leave our experiences behind all 1618 01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:47,200 of the the sort of the social and 1619 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:49,450 cultural baggage that we've accumulated 1620 01:09:53,070 --> 01:09:51,730 from birth whether from our parents are 1621 01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:53,080 from school or from you know our 1622 01:09:58,980 --> 01:09:55,810 churches or temples or from you know 1623 01:10:01,650 --> 01:09:58,990 just living within sort of a city or a 1624 01:10:04,530 --> 01:10:01,660 rural area or wherever we are we've sort 1625 01:10:06,810 --> 01:10:04,540 of become inundated with ideology we we 1626 01:10:09,210 --> 01:10:06,820 live our lives on a daily basis totally 1627 01:10:11,370 --> 01:10:09,220 surrounded by sort of this this reality 1628 01:10:13,050 --> 01:10:11,380 we've created for ourselves we don't 1629 01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:13,060 have the ability to remove ourselves 1630 01:10:21,660 --> 01:10:17,110 from this sort of ideological world 1631 01:10:25,770 --> 01:10:21,670 we've created for ourselves when we 1632 01:10:28,290 --> 01:10:25,780 start looking at the UFO question we 1633 01:10:33,540 --> 01:10:28,300 quickly start to bump into 1634 01:10:35,790 --> 01:10:33,550 to ideologies that oppose our sort of 1635 01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:35,800 our popular and mainstream ideologies 1636 01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:39,010 you know UFOs and and the idea of the 1637 01:10:43,740 --> 01:10:41,050 UFO and the idea of the intelligent 1638 01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:43,750 other the alien is very counter cultural 1639 01:10:50,310 --> 01:10:47,650 it throws under the bus everything sort 1640 01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:50,320 of you and I have agreed to when it 1641 01:10:55,069 --> 01:10:52,510 comes to how we live our lives you know 1642 01:10:58,020 --> 01:10:55,079 we have sort of all agreed that you know 1643 01:11:01,530 --> 01:10:58,030 it's good to have a job we've sort of 1644 01:11:03,660 --> 01:11:01,540 all agreed that you know one should buy 1645 01:11:05,189 --> 01:11:03,670 a car and buy gasoline for that car and 1646 01:11:06,990 --> 01:11:05,199 you know drive it to work every day and 1647 01:11:10,229 --> 01:11:07,000 and and do these things we've all agreed 1648 01:11:11,819 --> 01:11:10,239 that you know television and cell phones 1649 01:11:13,470 --> 01:11:11,829 or smartphones now I guess in the 1650 01:11:15,209 --> 01:11:13,480 internet these are all sort of normal 1651 01:11:18,839 --> 01:11:15,219 things that that sort of are part of 1652 01:11:20,939 --> 01:11:18,849 real life quote unquote the UFO question 1653 01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:20,949 takes all that and kind of flips it on 1654 01:11:27,149 --> 01:11:23,199 its head the UFO question very much 1655 01:11:28,740 --> 01:11:27,159 challenge is these social power systems 1656 01:11:30,589 --> 01:11:28,750 and these ideologies that we have for 1657 01:11:33,979 --> 01:11:30,599 ourselves it challenges these constructs 1658 01:11:36,330 --> 01:11:33,989 and it basically says like you know 1659 01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:36,340 really you think this is real life and 1660 01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:44,290 and it forces us to re-examine our it 1661 01:11:48,030 --> 01:11:46,090 forces to reexamine the way we sort of 1662 01:11:51,020 --> 01:11:48,040 deal with the world around us on a 1663 01:11:54,780 --> 01:11:51,030 regular basis I tied in the aspect of 1664 01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:54,790 capitalism only because capitalism 1665 01:12:00,120 --> 01:11:57,489 itself has become an ideology it really 1666 01:12:01,950 --> 01:12:00,130 governs the way we perceive our world I 1667 01:12:02,790 --> 01:12:01,960 mean and all that the system of 1668 01:12:05,580 --> 01:12:02,800 capitalism 1669 01:12:08,310 --> 01:12:05,590 economically and ideologically exists 1670 01:12:10,890 --> 01:12:08,320 worldwide there is no country right now 1671 01:12:12,780 --> 01:12:10,900 on this planet that functions outside of 1672 01:12:14,069 --> 01:12:12,790 a capitalist model you know you have 1673 01:12:16,169 --> 01:12:14,079 some countries that would claim they're 1674 01:12:18,930 --> 01:12:16,179 communists for example China but in 1675 01:12:20,250 --> 01:12:18,940 reality China is about as communist as 1676 01:12:23,399 --> 01:12:20,260 you know the United States is communist 1677 01:12:25,350 --> 01:12:23,409 they have free markets they have you 1678 01:12:29,370 --> 01:12:25,360 know enterprise just like you know the 1679 01:12:31,290 --> 01:12:29,380 Americans do so even sort of the biggest 1680 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:31,300 players on the planet who even say their 1681 01:12:35,790 --> 01:12:33,010 their communist really aren't there 1682 01:12:37,709 --> 01:12:35,800 they're primarily capitalist since we're 1683 01:12:40,049 --> 01:12:37,719 sort of all governed by this system of 1684 01:12:41,820 --> 01:12:40,059 thinking and the system of how we live 1685 01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:41,830 our lives on a daily basis 1686 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:44,230 as UFOs question this ideology because 1687 01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:46,810 UFOs kind of look at capitalism and say 1688 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:48,880 you know you'reyou're not necessarily 1689 01:12:54,060 --> 01:12:50,970 sort of the be-all and the end-all 1690 01:12:58,350 --> 01:12:54,070 capitalism just by being a system needs 1691 01:13:02,730 --> 01:12:58,360 to place the UFO topic into sort of the 1692 01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:02,740 fringe of culture this is why UFO the 1693 01:13:07,830 --> 01:13:05,650 UFO discourse is not talked about daily 1694 01:13:10,350 --> 01:13:07,840 on the news it's why it's not talked 1695 01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:10,360 about sort of regularly in conversation 1696 01:13:15,300 --> 01:13:12,850 at the dinner table capitalism has done 1697 01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:15,310 a very good job very insidiously good 1698 01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:18,640 job of relegating the UFO subject to 1699 01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:20,890 sort of the cultural fringe it's not 1700 01:13:25,050 --> 01:13:22,210 gotten rid of it totally because it 1701 01:13:26,820 --> 01:13:25,060 can't but it can kind of say we're not 1702 01:13:28,110 --> 01:13:26,830 going to talk about this and they do 1703 01:13:29,610 --> 01:13:28,120 this by a lot of ways right they do this 1704 01:13:30,990 --> 01:13:29,620 in media you know every time the news 1705 01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:31,000 covers our UFO story you know the 1706 01:13:35,220 --> 01:13:33,370 x-files music plays the anchors you know 1707 01:13:37,980 --> 01:13:35,230 grin stupidly and they typically make 1708 01:13:39,870 --> 01:13:37,990 fun of the people who you know have had 1709 01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:39,880 UFO experiences you know they get Bill 1710 01:13:44,100 --> 01:13:41,650 Nye to come on and openly attack 1711 01:13:45,930 --> 01:13:44,110 believers in UFOs they get you know Neil 1712 01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:45,940 deGrasse Tyson to show up and and talk 1713 01:13:49,770 --> 01:13:47,920 about you know the UFO question or Carl 1714 01:13:51,930 --> 01:13:49,780 Sagan back in the 70s you know I think 1715 01:13:54,450 --> 01:13:51,940 you have literally this war of 1716 01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:54,460 ideologies occurring with the UFO topic 1717 01:13:59,370 --> 01:13:56,770 and that's really what my essays about 1718 01:14:01,110 --> 01:13:59,380 but the problem is that the UFO topic 1719 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:01,120 itself the UFO discourse itself the when 1720 01:14:04,770 --> 01:14:03,250 you and I talk about UFOs we talk about 1721 01:14:07,380 --> 01:14:04,780 it ideologically as well it's not like 1722 01:14:09,930 --> 01:14:07,390 we have the truth for example we don't 1723 01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:09,940 have access to some special objective 1724 01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:12,850 true reality or some real version of it 1725 01:14:16,890 --> 01:14:14,560 we're just as ideological as the other 1726 01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:16,900 side but it's kind of this clash of 1727 01:14:22,260 --> 01:14:19,330 ideologies and that's kind of what the 1728 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:22,270 essay tries to get through and why this 1729 01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:23,890 is happening and I do want to spoil it 1730 01:14:27,570 --> 01:14:26,080 that's kind of a good introduction so if 1731 01:14:28,530 --> 01:14:27,580 you're interested in sort of political 1732 01:14:30,150 --> 01:14:28,540 science and you're interested in 1733 01:14:32,490 --> 01:14:30,160 economics and interested in in 1734 01:14:34,230 --> 01:14:32,500 philosophy and UFOs this is your 1735 01:14:37,550 --> 01:14:34,240 wheelhouse if you're not into any of 1736 01:14:39,930 --> 01:14:37,560 that as one Amazon review says skip it 1737 01:14:41,700 --> 01:14:39,940 well I wanted to ask you a little bit 1738 01:14:44,010 --> 01:14:41,710 about the way you mentioned the review 1739 01:14:46,140 --> 01:14:44,020 so there have been some good reviews I 1740 01:14:49,650 --> 01:14:46,150 and there's also been some resistance 1741 01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:49,660 from people who seem to refuse to read 1742 01:14:53,959 --> 01:14:52,210 it so uh have you read the comments from 1743 01:14:56,569 --> 01:14:53,969 the people who've been putting the ball 1744 01:14:58,009 --> 01:14:56,579 down without reading it the beauty about 1745 01:15:01,040 --> 01:14:58,019 my essay and I'll be honest here the 1746 01:15:03,589 --> 01:15:01,050 beauty about my essay is it doesn't deal 1747 01:15:06,109 --> 01:15:03,599 necessarily with sort of aliens I don't 1748 01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:06,119 really talk about the alien question or 1749 01:15:10,850 --> 01:15:09,210 the UFO question in a direct sense so my 1750 01:15:13,399 --> 01:15:10,860 essay does not necessary concern itself 1751 01:15:15,529 --> 01:15:13,409 with whether UFOs are real or not or 1752 01:15:16,549 --> 01:15:15,539 whether sorry aliens are real or not or 1753 01:15:19,399 --> 01:15:16,559 interdimensional sort of like I don't 1754 01:15:21,950 --> 01:15:19,409 really focus on that my expertise is in 1755 01:15:24,100 --> 01:15:21,960 culture my academic expertise is in is 1756 01:15:27,500 --> 01:15:24,110 in sort of cultural studies and theory 1757 01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:27,510 so I really like looking at the UFO 1758 01:15:32,870 --> 01:15:31,050 question not necessarily as sort of what 1759 01:15:35,270 --> 01:15:32,880 is going on with the aliens or the UFOs 1760 01:15:37,279 --> 01:15:35,280 I like looking at the UFO question from 1761 01:15:41,149 --> 01:15:37,289 sort of the human side of things why do 1762 01:15:42,890 --> 01:15:41,159 we address the UFO question as a taboo 1763 01:15:44,930 --> 01:15:42,900 question why do UFOs cause sort of 1764 01:15:45,979 --> 01:15:44,940 cultural anxiety for people to the point 1765 01:15:48,290 --> 01:15:45,989 where we don't want to talk about them 1766 01:15:49,790 --> 01:15:48,300 in polite conversation why do people 1767 01:15:51,229 --> 01:15:49,800 sort of look at you strangely when they 1768 01:15:52,879 --> 01:15:51,239 find out that you're into this subject 1769 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:52,889 matter and go oh really you're into that 1770 01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:54,690 that's kind of weird you know like why 1771 01:15:59,930 --> 01:15:57,090 is that their reaction so this is my 1772 01:16:02,450 --> 01:15:59,940 sort of expertise within UFO discourse I 1773 01:16:04,279 --> 01:16:02,460 I that's kind of where I dwell 1774 01:16:05,959 --> 01:16:04,289 you know also talk about aliens and I'll 1775 01:16:08,359 --> 01:16:05,969 still talk about you know my hypotheses 1776 01:16:09,770 --> 01:16:08,369 I suppose my opinions on the UFO subject 1777 01:16:11,810 --> 01:16:09,780 matter like you know what they are what 1778 01:16:14,149 --> 01:16:11,820 I think they are or whatever but the 1779 01:16:17,419 --> 01:16:14,159 problem is I can't really prove any of 1780 01:16:19,910 --> 01:16:17,429 my opinions right I have hypotheses that 1781 01:16:21,950 --> 01:16:19,920 I don't really have evidence for well I 1782 01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:21,960 suppose that bursts of honesty may not 1783 01:16:26,870 --> 01:16:23,489 appeal to some of the people who are 1784 01:16:29,810 --> 01:16:26,880 looking into et and perhaps some of the 1785 01:16:32,899 --> 01:16:29,820 people who expect some sort of immediate 1786 01:16:33,950 --> 01:16:32,909 disclosure but so what we've got MJ 1787 01:16:36,620 --> 01:16:33,960 binaya 1788 01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:36,630 Jean Steinberg Kurt Collins our guest 1789 01:16:53,770 --> 01:16:50,459 [Music] 1790 01:16:58,750 --> 01:16:53,780 thank you for listening to GCS 1791 01:17:04,669 --> 01:17:02,030 my husband says you are what you eat not 1792 01:17:06,650 --> 01:17:04,679 true dear I did my research actually you 1793 01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:06,660 are what you can absorb so I didn't feel 1794 01:17:09,860 --> 01:17:08,010 the vitamins and supplements I was 1795 01:17:11,689 --> 01:17:09,870 taking were effective I didn't feel any 1796 01:17:13,610 --> 01:17:11,699 different then I switched to prototyped 1797 01:17:15,950 --> 01:17:13,620 a liquid multivitamin mineral and 1798 01:17:17,689 --> 01:17:15,960 phytonutrient complex and Wow 1799 01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:17,699 you've got to see the video at true 1800 01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:19,860 health facts calm that's true health 1801 01:17:26,750 --> 01:17:24,210 facts calm then call 502 for 10 3 4 1 1 1802 01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:26,760 Pro divide is nutrition you can feel her 1803 01:17:31,370 --> 01:17:29,400 divide his nutrition that gets in hi 1804 01:17:34,189 --> 01:17:31,380 this is Ted Anderson I'm here to tell 1805 01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:34,199 you about GC and telecare calm a team of 1806 01:17:40,130 --> 01:17:36,810 board-certified doctors assisting you 24 1807 01:17:40,669 --> 01:17:40,140 hours a day seven days a week 365 days a 1808 01:17:43,130 --> 01:17:40,679 year 1809 01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:43,140 within 15 minutes of registration care 1810 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01:20:52,919 --> 01:20:50,620 prime six six two three two one three 1894 01:20:54,030 --> 01:20:52,929 two one new genic samples are not 1895 01:20:57,780 --> 01:20:54,040 available in stores 1896 01:21:06,420 --> 01:20:57,790 so again text PRI m e six six two three 1897 01:21:12,070 --> 01:21:09,190 hi it's Greg Cameron from presidential 1898 01:21:14,979 --> 01:21:12,080 UFO calm you're listening to the para 1899 01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:14,989 cast the gold standard of paranormal 1900 01:21:25,660 --> 01:21:23,210 radio so we're focusing on another 1901 01:21:29,229 --> 01:21:25,670 contributor to the book UFOs reframing 1902 01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:29,239 the debate MJ baniyas and our co-host is 1903 01:21:35,290 --> 01:21:31,610 someone who is yet another contributor 1904 01:21:38,050 --> 01:21:35,300 Kurt Collins Kurt to want to continue 1905 01:21:43,660 --> 01:21:38,060 the questioning well sure I wanted to 1906 01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:43,670 ask a MJ about how Robbie came to find 1907 01:21:49,630 --> 01:21:46,730 him and how the chop at the topic was 1908 01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:49,640 chosen whether this was what he had 1909 01:21:55,090 --> 01:21:52,250 asked for you know how did how did this 1910 01:21:56,620 --> 01:21:55,100 come together you know could grief it 1911 01:21:59,080 --> 01:21:56,630 was so you know it's funny how its it 1912 01:22:00,670 --> 01:21:59,090 was it's been almost a year like it's 1913 01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:00,680 crazy how long it takes you know I think 1914 01:22:07,380 --> 01:22:04,130 the way it worked out was I was on a 1915 01:22:09,910 --> 01:22:07,390 podcast with Ryan Sprague who's another 1916 01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:09,920 contributor to this book and he wrote 1917 01:22:12,940 --> 01:22:10,970 his own book recently called somewhere 1918 01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:12,950 in the skies it's good you check it out 1919 01:22:17,110 --> 01:22:14,930 but I was on one of his I was on a radio 1920 01:22:19,090 --> 01:22:17,120 show with him a podcast rather and we 1921 01:22:21,490 --> 01:22:19,100 started talking and this subject came up 1922 01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:21,500 we started sort of going back and forth 1923 01:22:26,979 --> 01:22:25,810 on why we thought the UFO question was 1924 01:22:28,810 --> 01:22:26,989 taboo 1925 01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:28,820 why you know it's not talked about in 1926 01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:31,489 sort of mainstream polite society and I 1927 01:22:37,510 --> 01:22:34,450 think Robbie would just by happenstance 1928 01:22:38,860 --> 01:22:37,520 you know saw the link on Facebook or 1929 01:22:41,170 --> 01:22:38,870 something and he started listening to it 1930 01:22:43,810 --> 01:22:41,180 and he really sort of liked where it was 1931 01:22:44,890 --> 01:22:43,820 going and he sent me a message through 1932 01:22:46,450 --> 01:22:44,900 Facebook saying like you know over this 1933 01:22:49,060 --> 01:22:46,460 new podcast really great whatever and 1934 01:22:52,330 --> 01:22:49,070 then it like through some weird 1935 01:22:54,700 --> 01:22:52,340 synchronicity I had recently heard him 1936 01:22:58,150 --> 01:22:54,710 on a podcast about his novel or a rather 1937 01:23:00,100 --> 01:22:58,160 his book silver screen saucers so it was 1938 01:23:01,750 --> 01:23:00,110 almost like this weird moment where I 1939 01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:01,760 was going to message him literally that 1940 01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:04,370 day and he messaged me first and he sort 1941 01:23:06,610 --> 01:23:05,690 of had this idea for this book and he 1942 01:23:08,530 --> 01:23:06,620 said you know what I'd be willing to 1943 01:23:11,110 --> 01:23:08,540 contribute she just said you know it 1944 01:23:13,570 --> 01:23:11,120 just write me an essay you know 5,000 1945 01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:13,580 words and I was like okay so I sort of 1946 01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:16,610 dove into my realm of 1947 01:23:19,780 --> 01:23:18,290 sort of background knowledge in and I 1948 01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:19,790 started to sort of think about the 1949 01:23:25,660 --> 01:23:23,199 conversation Ryan I had on his show and 1950 01:23:27,550 --> 01:23:25,670 it kind of just happened I kind of just 1951 01:23:28,750 --> 01:23:27,560 sat down and and I was playing her with 1952 01:23:31,180 --> 01:23:28,760 a whole bunch of different ideas on 1953 01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:31,190 where I wanted to go maybe and what I 1954 01:23:35,709 --> 01:23:34,130 wanted to talk about it was funny my 1955 01:23:36,939 --> 01:23:35,719 first topic that I was actually gonna 1956 01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:36,949 pick so I was sitting and I started 1957 01:23:40,570 --> 01:23:38,330 writing it actually I started writing my 1958 01:23:43,419 --> 01:23:40,580 first essay and it never happened it 1959 01:23:46,930 --> 01:23:43,429 never came into existence but I was 1960 01:23:49,419 --> 01:23:46,940 gonna argue that ufology and the study 1961 01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:49,429 of UFOs should separate itself from the 1962 01:23:54,010 --> 01:23:52,130 study of extraterrestrials and 1963 01:23:55,629 --> 01:23:54,020 interdimensional and whatever and I sort 1964 01:23:58,689 --> 01:23:55,639 of said the two are separate things and 1965 01:24:00,399 --> 01:23:58,699 I was gonna try and argue that ufology 1966 01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:00,409 has no business dealing with aliens and 1967 01:24:05,050 --> 01:24:02,449 the people who study aliens and sort of 1968 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:05,060 that side of the equation have no 1969 01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:07,730 business dealing in ufology and in the 1970 01:24:12,220 --> 01:24:10,610 study of like objective ufos and as I 1971 01:24:13,899 --> 01:24:12,230 started writing it I realize I couldn't 1972 01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:13,909 support my thesis in any way like I was 1973 01:24:17,859 --> 01:24:16,610 it started becoming total nonsense and I 1974 01:24:20,020 --> 01:24:17,869 was like this is a joke so I just 1975 01:24:21,550 --> 01:24:20,030 deleted the whole thing and I sort of 1976 01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:21,560 had to sit around and think about it for 1977 01:24:24,970 --> 01:24:23,210 a few more weeks until I sort of popped 1978 01:24:27,790 --> 01:24:24,980 into my head and it's just sort of came 1979 01:24:29,649 --> 01:24:27,800 into existence and I think I don't know 1980 01:24:30,970 --> 01:24:29,659 I I think I did a pretty good job but 1981 01:24:32,830 --> 01:24:30,980 that's me and I'm the writer so I'm 1982 01:24:35,290 --> 01:24:32,840 pretty biased but it just sort of 1983 01:24:37,990 --> 01:24:35,300 happened through happenstance I random 1984 01:24:40,780 --> 01:24:38,000 chance all for my essay it was an 1985 01:24:42,609 --> 01:24:40,790 assignment and Robbie asked me to write 1986 01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:42,619 about the the story of the Roswell 1987 01:24:47,620 --> 01:24:44,810 slides the investigation by the team 1988 01:24:50,500 --> 01:24:47,630 that exposed it and to put the whole 1989 01:24:53,470 --> 01:24:50,510 thing into perspective so I wrote it 1990 01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:53,480 almost as a mystery story where you 1991 01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:55,760 could enjoy it from a Columbo point of 1992 01:24:58,810 --> 01:24:57,290 view if you knew where the story was 1993 01:25:00,669 --> 01:24:58,820 going you would be interested in the 1994 01:25:03,370 --> 01:25:00,679 motivation of people and how it happened 1995 01:25:05,050 --> 01:25:03,380 and then if you didn't I tried to save 1996 01:25:07,300 --> 01:25:05,060 some of it so that you know as that 1997 01:25:08,830 --> 01:25:07,310 happened you you would understand it so 1998 01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:08,840 but I think it's a it's a good 1999 01:25:13,990 --> 01:25:11,090 documentation of events but what I 2000 01:25:17,350 --> 01:25:14,000 intended to write instead was the way 2001 01:25:20,109 --> 01:25:17,360 that um the UFO topic is is sort of 2002 01:25:22,899 --> 01:25:20,119 trade traded as a more of a marketplace 2003 01:25:24,589 --> 01:25:22,909 and how the ideas are treated as 2004 01:25:26,389 --> 01:25:24,599 entertainment and you 2005 01:25:29,959 --> 01:25:26,399 for a lot of people that's all it is and 2006 01:25:32,629 --> 01:25:29,969 then I realized this case of the Roswell 2007 01:25:34,819 --> 01:25:32,639 slides was the perfect example for this 2008 01:25:37,369 --> 01:25:34,829 anyway so I wound up you know back where 2009 01:25:40,609 --> 01:25:37,379 I started but I think Robbie did a great 2010 01:25:42,649 --> 01:25:40,619 job representing a number of viewpoints 2011 01:25:44,899 --> 01:25:42,659 and you know he's mentioned that some of 2012 01:25:47,389 --> 01:25:44,909 Herman direct opposition to one another 2013 01:25:49,129 --> 01:25:47,399 so I think he did a great job of 2014 01:25:51,770 --> 01:25:49,139 collecting people and then also the way 2015 01:25:53,299 --> 01:25:51,780 it you know it's almost like the book 2016 01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:53,309 itself is put together almost like a 2017 01:25:57,889 --> 01:25:55,289 musical piece and it's there definitely 2018 01:26:00,770 --> 01:25:57,899 some peaks and valleys and and there's 2019 01:26:04,429 --> 01:26:00,780 some this challenging did you find any 2020 01:26:07,639 --> 01:26:04,439 piece in there that uh did open your 2021 01:26:11,089 --> 01:26:07,649 eyes or made you angry or challenged in 2022 01:26:13,849 --> 01:26:11,099 any way one thing that sort of a lot of 2023 01:26:16,489 --> 01:26:13,859 the pieces focused on and this is I 2024 01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:16,499 think where the book is garnering sort 2025 01:26:21,649 --> 01:26:20,010 of significant attention is there's a 2026 01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:21,659 significant sort of contingent of people 2027 01:26:25,939 --> 01:26:24,449 who who sort of have basically said you 2028 01:26:27,349 --> 01:26:25,949 know why do we think it's 2029 01:26:31,659 --> 01:26:27,359 extraterrestrials write this sort of 2030 01:26:34,580 --> 01:26:31,669 there's a very sort of significant anti 2031 01:26:37,939 --> 01:26:34,590 ETH sort of flair to this this 2032 01:26:39,799 --> 01:26:37,949 collection of books right and I think a 2033 01:26:41,359 --> 01:26:39,809 very interesting one was was by Greg 2034 01:26:43,129 --> 01:26:41,369 Bishop where he sort of explained and 2035 01:26:46,099 --> 01:26:43,139 extrapolated more on his co-creation 2036 01:26:47,509 --> 01:26:46,109 hypothesis and it actually led me to 2037 01:26:50,089 --> 01:26:47,519 sort of explore his ideas a little 2038 01:26:52,099 --> 01:26:50,099 further and write a few blog posts about 2039 01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:52,109 the co-creation hypothesis from a 2040 01:26:57,679 --> 01:26:53,760 philosophical been using sort of 2041 01:27:00,139 --> 01:26:57,689 established philosophy and how 2042 01:27:02,419 --> 01:27:00,149 potentially our perception of an 2043 01:27:04,609 --> 01:27:02,429 intelligent other would shape it into 2044 01:27:07,609 --> 01:27:04,619 something that you and I can see and 2045 01:27:10,909 --> 01:27:07,619 touch and feel right so just to make it 2046 01:27:12,679 --> 01:27:10,919 simple there are no Gray's you simply 2047 01:27:15,949 --> 01:27:12,689 interpret the intelligent to other to be 2048 01:27:17,629 --> 01:27:15,959 a gray just sort of boil that down fast 2049 01:27:19,459 --> 01:27:17,639 and I found that really interesting 2050 01:27:21,259 --> 01:27:19,469 because again there's sort of there's a 2051 01:27:23,029 --> 01:27:21,269 lot of established philosophy for this 2052 01:27:24,409 --> 01:27:23,039 idea so I found his interesting and it 2053 01:27:26,899 --> 01:27:24,419 sort of wrote I wrote a bunch of blog 2054 01:27:28,429 --> 01:27:26,909 posts about it so taking his idea and 2055 01:27:30,169 --> 01:27:28,439 trying to kind of shoot it in all these 2056 01:27:32,060 --> 01:27:30,179 different philosophical directions and I 2057 01:27:34,310 --> 01:27:32,070 would say I had a lot of pushback like a 2058 01:27:37,350 --> 01:27:34,320 lot of people got really mad at me about 2059 01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:37,360 these posts I think because they were 2060 01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:39,280 you know what the hell do you know you 2061 01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:41,050 were never abducted and there are sort 2062 01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:43,690 of all the people who sort of had you 2063 01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:47,130 know alleged alien experiences sort of 2064 01:27:51,030 --> 01:27:49,570 really fought me on that one so I think 2065 01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:51,040 that was a good one in that it just 2066 01:27:54,990 --> 01:27:52,930 caused a lot of thinking and a lot of 2067 01:27:56,460 --> 01:27:55,000 maybe opinion to come out and that's 2068 01:27:59,970 --> 01:27:56,470 good you know it caused a lot of debate 2069 01:28:01,740 --> 01:27:59,980 and discussion to occur so so that was 2070 01:28:02,430 --> 01:28:01,750 definitely an interesting one but I have 2071 01:28:06,350 --> 01:28:02,440 to be honest 2072 01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:06,360 I've read all of them I've read the book 2073 01:28:11,450 --> 01:28:08,410 five minutes they're all terrific like 2074 01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:11,460 this is a collection of people who are 2075 01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:13,930 incredibly intelligent and and even 2076 01:28:17,850 --> 01:28:16,090 though we all disagree that and and it's 2077 01:28:19,530 --> 01:28:17,860 funny like the vast majority of us you 2078 01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:19,540 know we sort of see eye to eye on 2079 01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:21,130 certain things but we don't see eye to 2080 01:28:24,890 --> 01:28:23,440 eye on everything I think we all respect 2081 01:28:28,650 --> 01:28:24,900 each other I think that's one thing that 2082 01:28:30,570 --> 01:28:28,660 sort of definitely shines especial once 2083 01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:30,580 we're all sort of if we're all ever on 2084 01:28:33,540 --> 01:28:32,050 air together on a podcast whatever you 2085 01:28:36,750 --> 01:28:33,550 really find even the people who are like 2086 01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:36,760 diametrically opposed respect each other 2087 01:28:41,190 --> 01:28:39,130 immensely um so that's that's kind of 2088 01:28:43,140 --> 01:28:41,200 another aspect of the book I really like 2089 01:28:47,630 --> 01:28:43,150 is the offer office sort of generally 2090 01:28:51,420 --> 01:28:47,640 like each other in it most of the time 2091 01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:51,430 if I if I had been editor of the book I 2092 01:28:57,480 --> 01:28:54,010 would have made room for a no essay by 2093 01:29:00,780 --> 01:28:57,490 John keel I'm not really a John Q fan at 2094 01:29:05,040 --> 01:29:00,790 all but have you read his piece the 2095 01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:05,050 Flying Saucer subculture you know I feel 2096 01:29:12,060 --> 01:29:09,850 like I've read portions of it um you 2097 01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:12,070 know I'm sorry I have probably read 2098 01:29:17,340 --> 01:29:14,290 pieces of it in for like tip for my 2099 01:29:19,440 --> 01:29:17,350 personal work too you know in my blog 2100 01:29:21,330 --> 01:29:19,450 but I'm not sure if I've sort of sat 2101 01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:21,340 down and read it as one piece I may have 2102 01:29:27,540 --> 01:29:24,250 sort of stripped pieces of it so I'm 2103 01:29:30,210 --> 01:29:27,550 gonna say I haven't read it but I have 2104 01:29:32,970 --> 01:29:30,220 in a sense you know what I mean well 2105 01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:32,980 it's it's great if in the listeners 2106 01:29:36,330 --> 01:29:34,570 haven't read it that that is on your 2107 01:29:39,060 --> 01:29:36,340 required reading list and you know it'd 2108 01:29:41,070 --> 01:29:39,070 be a worthy worthy addition to the to 2109 01:29:42,870 --> 01:29:41,080 this book you know if it were able to be 2110 01:29:45,010 --> 01:29:42,880 included but one of the things that the 2111 01:29:47,740 --> 01:29:45,020 Akhil did was he was there 2112 01:29:50,770 --> 01:29:47,750 the beginning of UFOs he was he was 2113 01:29:53,170 --> 01:29:50,780 there as a fan of Ray Palmer's amazing 2114 01:29:57,280 --> 01:29:53,180 stories he was writing to fan letters 2115 01:29:59,260 --> 01:29:57,290 and he saw the transition of uh-oh what 2116 01:30:01,270 --> 01:29:59,270 would you really call it oh it was sort 2117 01:30:03,820 --> 01:30:01,280 of a mystical side of things like the 2118 01:30:06,730 --> 01:30:03,830 borderland scientist group he saw this 2119 01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:06,740 this development in you know that came 2120 01:30:11,470 --> 01:30:09,050 first and then people saw flying saucers 2121 01:30:16,030 --> 01:30:11,480 and it sort of was all put together in 2122 01:30:18,010 --> 01:30:16,040 in the den Donald Kehoe of course went 2123 01:30:21,460 --> 01:30:18,020 with this strictly nuts and bolts 2124 01:30:24,610 --> 01:30:21,470 materialistic viewpoint but there's this 2125 01:30:27,820 --> 01:30:24,620 this and at least those two parts is 2126 01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:27,830 kind of a twin nature of UFOs that are 2127 01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:29,600 that have been battling ever since and 2128 01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:31,250 you mentioned in the MUFON so in the 2129 01:30:36,670 --> 01:30:33,530 struggle now let's break it here we'll 2130 01:30:40,060 --> 01:30:36,680 go up co-host Kurt Collins I'm gene 2131 01:30:49,990 --> 01:30:40,070 Steinberg MJ baniyas joins us more to 2132 01:31:00,580 --> 01:30:53,950 you are listening to GCN 2133 01:31:03,070 --> 01:31:00,590 visit GCN live.com today Davers I want 2134 01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:03,080 to tell you about my favorite graphics 2135 01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:05,090 app it's the award-winning graphic 2136 01:31:09,850 --> 01:31:07,610 converter you know graphic converter is 2137 01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:09,860 the universal genius for photo editing 2138 01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:12,770 on your Mac join over one and a half 2139 01:31:18,250 --> 01:31:15,410 million loyal users 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01:33:05,510 yeah just let me nap a little promise we 2182 01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:07,580 get more active no I know how come 2183 01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:09,290 you're so ready to go super berries 2184 01:33:13,330 --> 01:33:11,690 aronia berries rhodiola aronia berries 2185 01:33:14,830 --> 01:33:13,340 from super berries calm they're known 2186 01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:14,840 for having one of the highest levels of 2187 01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:16,370 antioxidants that helps with overall 2188 01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:18,170 wellness where'd you get them I ordered 2189 01:33:21,970 --> 01:33:20,449 them from super berries calm / radio and 2190 01:33:23,770 --> 01:33:21,980 right now we can get a free smoothie 2191 01:33:25,900 --> 01:33:23,780 recipe book with our order plus we can 2192 01:33:28,630 --> 01:33:25,910 save $4 at checkout I can't wait to try 2193 01:33:31,420 --> 01:33:28,640 them I'll get it all choose health eat 2194 01:33:33,189 --> 01:33:31,430 purple super berries calm hello I'm Mike 2195 01:33:35,050 --> 01:33:33,199 Mendell the inventor of my pillow and 2196 01:33:37,180 --> 01:33:35,060 like all of you out there I have problem 2197 01:33:39,100 --> 01:33:37,190 sleeping pillows would go flat I would 2198 01:33:40,900 --> 01:33:39,110 flip flop all night long I would wake up 2199 01:33:42,340 --> 01:33:40,910 with a sore neck maybe a headache or 2200 01:33:44,050 --> 01:33:42,350 feel like I needed a nap even though I 2201 01:33:45,939 --> 01:33:44,060 slept eight hours when I invented my 2202 01:33:48,130 --> 01:33:45,949 pillow I wanted it to where you can move 2203 01:33:49,959 --> 01:33:48,140 the patented fill to give you the exact 2204 01:33:52,180 --> 01:33:49,969 support you need as an individual 2205 01:33:53,830 --> 01:33:52,190 regardless of sleep position my pillow 2206 01:33:55,540 --> 01:33:53,840 will get you into that deep REM sleep 2207 01:33:57,610 --> 01:33:55,550 faster and you will stay there longer 2208 01:33:59,350 --> 01:33:57,620 it's not about how much time we spend in 2209 01:34:01,120 --> 01:33:59,360 bed it's about how much of that quality 2210 01:34:02,890 --> 01:34:01,130 sleep we get I do all of my own 2211 01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:02,900 manufacturing right here in the United 2212 01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:04,730 States I have a ten year warranty you 2213 01:34:09,189 --> 01:34:06,770 can wash and dry my pillow and I give 2214 01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:09,199 you a 60 day money back guarantee so you 2215 01:34:13,180 --> 01:34:11,210 have nothing to lose and here's my best 2216 01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:13,190 offer ever you can buy one of my pillows 2217 01:34:18,729 --> 01:34:15,410 and get one absolutely free a go to my 2218 01:34:22,180 --> 01:34:18,739 pillow comm or call 887 zero zero three 2219 01:34:24,459 --> 01:34:22,190 zero five and use promo code GCN that's 2220 01:34:26,950 --> 01:34:24,469 my pillow comm or eight hundred eighty 2221 01:34:31,330 --> 01:34:26,960 seven zero zero three zero five with 2222 01:34:33,580 --> 01:34:31,340 promo code GCN looking for that edge 2223 01:34:35,470 --> 01:34:33,590 during those intimate moments we see 2224 01:34:38,380 --> 01:34:35,480 many ads for enhancement but the side 2225 01:34:40,150 --> 01:34:38,390 effects include death at GCN team we 2226 01:34:41,950 --> 01:34:40,160 should change the healthy body brain and 2227 01:34:43,570 --> 01:34:41,960 heart pack to the healthy libido pack 2228 01:34:45,700 --> 01:34:43,580 the brain and heart are not the only 2229 01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:45,710 organs that require a healthy vascular 2230 01:34:50,229 --> 01:34:47,930 system for proper blood flow at the 2231 01:34:52,090 --> 01:34:50,239 right moment go to GCN team.com 2232 01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:52,100 or call eight seven seven eight seven 2233 01:34:56,590 --> 01:34:54,890 eight 4203 that's eight seven seven 2234 01:34:58,360 --> 01:34:56,600 eight seven eight 4203 2235 01:35:03,510 --> 01:34:58,370 that's eight seven seven eight seven 2236 01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:05,950 this is Leslie Kane and I'm with the 2237 01:35:11,879 --> 01:35:08,210 Coalition for freedom of information and 2238 01:35:18,010 --> 01:35:14,439 interesting dialogue there between Kirk 2239 01:35:20,140 --> 01:35:18,020 and MJ on the power cast this week Kurt 2240 01:35:21,910 --> 01:35:20,150 we didn't have time for a lot of 2241 01:35:25,660 --> 01:35:21,920 questions in the forums but it did have 2242 01:35:27,459 --> 01:35:25,670 one from read first he says I just 2243 01:35:29,620 --> 01:35:27,469 walked the book I thought the last two 2244 01:35:32,140 --> 01:35:29,630 shows were fantastic I enjoyed the 2245 01:35:34,270 --> 01:35:32,150 folkloric and sociological aspects of 2246 01:35:36,669 --> 01:35:34,280 ufology and look forward to exploring 2247 01:35:39,879 --> 01:35:36,679 the ideas presented by the authors some 2248 01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:39,889 of whom are new to me alas Banaras is 2249 01:35:43,870 --> 01:35:42,050 one who's new to me so my questions are 2250 01:35:46,359 --> 01:35:43,880 pretty basic was there something 2251 01:35:47,399 --> 01:35:46,369 specific or one experience that prompted 2252 01:35:50,589 --> 01:35:47,409 you to take a more philosophical 2253 01:35:52,930 --> 01:35:50,599 approach to the topic of UFOs you've 2254 01:35:56,530 --> 01:35:52,940 kind of touched on that but you know was 2255 01:36:00,040 --> 01:35:56,540 there um was this just your background 2256 01:36:01,870 --> 01:36:00,050 or was there any any case that did 2257 01:36:04,540 --> 01:36:01,880 challenge you that made you really want 2258 01:36:07,089 --> 01:36:04,550 to you know apply philosophy to to the 2259 01:36:08,830 --> 01:36:07,099 problem um no I don't think there was a 2260 01:36:11,140 --> 01:36:08,840 specific experience I think I think it's 2261 01:36:13,450 --> 01:36:11,150 predominately my academic background a 2262 01:36:15,580 --> 01:36:13,460 lot of my work and critical theory was 2263 01:36:19,589 --> 01:36:15,590 focused on subcultures in university so 2264 01:36:23,890 --> 01:36:19,599 I really enjoy the study of 2265 01:36:26,379 --> 01:36:23,900 these sort of movements that occur right 2266 01:36:28,959 --> 01:36:26,389 within sort of all within the fringes of 2267 01:36:31,359 --> 01:36:28,969 mainstream culture and UFOs are very 2268 01:36:33,100 --> 01:36:31,369 much sort of a subculture and I don't 2269 01:36:34,510 --> 01:36:33,110 want to sort of come off as you know 2270 01:36:36,069 --> 01:36:34,520 like it's not the UFOs aren't a 2271 01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:36,079 subculture in the sense like it's a bad 2272 01:36:39,910 --> 01:36:38,090 thing we're just you know really the 2273 01:36:43,180 --> 01:36:39,920 people who sort of exist within the UFO 2274 01:36:45,220 --> 01:36:43,190 community we're not really you know in 2275 01:36:46,870 --> 01:36:45,230 in the core of mainstream culture we're 2276 01:36:49,629 --> 01:36:46,880 definitely you know off to the side 2277 01:36:51,729 --> 01:36:49,639 there so no I think which is my academic 2278 01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:51,739 background but as I was getting into 2279 01:36:57,220 --> 01:36:54,650 sort of the fieldwork of investigating 2280 01:37:03,069 --> 01:36:57,230 UFO sightings and as I sort of started 2281 01:37:04,839 --> 01:37:03,079 to interact with more people who uh you 2282 01:37:06,370 --> 01:37:04,849 know had sightings or more people who 2283 01:37:10,750 --> 01:37:06,380 were in the field just researchers like 2284 01:37:13,780 --> 01:37:10,760 myself I started to realize that we all 2285 01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:13,790 kind of buy into the same stuff right we 2286 01:37:19,979 --> 01:37:15,489 all kind of 2287 01:37:23,759 --> 01:37:19,989 take leaps of belief or logic towards 2288 01:37:25,410 --> 01:37:23,769 certain sort of destinations and this is 2289 01:37:28,529 --> 01:37:25,420 really how a subculture exists right 2290 01:37:30,299 --> 01:37:28,539 it's a sort of a shared grouping of 2291 01:37:32,370 --> 01:37:30,309 people or sort of it's a grouping of 2292 01:37:34,410 --> 01:37:32,380 people rather who have a shared sort of 2293 01:37:36,540 --> 01:37:34,420 belief system really if that's just to 2294 01:37:38,790 --> 01:37:36,550 boil it down just keep it simple and and 2295 01:37:41,640 --> 01:37:38,800 really the UFO community does have a 2296 01:37:42,779 --> 01:37:41,650 shared belief system we don't 2297 01:37:44,819 --> 01:37:42,789 necessarily all agree with each other 2298 01:37:46,350 --> 01:37:44,829 all the time but we all know what 2299 01:37:47,819 --> 01:37:46,360 everyone else is talking about and we 2300 01:37:48,899 --> 01:37:47,829 can at least have conversations about it 2301 01:37:52,229 --> 01:37:48,909 because we all know what we're talking 2302 01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:52,239 about so that was kind of where I got 2303 01:37:57,209 --> 01:37:55,210 interested in it is is very quickly I'd 2304 01:37:59,250 --> 01:37:57,219 established in my own mind that the UFO 2305 01:38:01,529 --> 01:37:59,260 community is a subculture and then from 2306 01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:01,539 there as I started applying kind of the 2307 01:38:06,089 --> 01:38:03,489 the philosophy and the theory that I 2308 01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:06,099 learned in university and in my academic 2309 01:38:11,489 --> 01:38:08,650 career to it I started to realize how it 2310 01:38:14,850 --> 01:38:11,499 sort of fit into sort of my background 2311 01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:14,860 in philosophy so that's really the 2312 01:38:19,319 --> 01:38:17,530 reason it's also kind of neat I gotta be 2313 01:38:22,169 --> 01:38:19,329 honest the other thing that kind of led 2314 01:38:23,729 --> 01:38:22,179 me down this path is I quickly realized 2315 01:38:25,169 --> 01:38:23,739 no one else was doing what I was doing 2316 01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:25,179 like there's not many people out there 2317 01:38:33,899 --> 01:38:30,010 who sort of do UFO philosophy not many 2318 01:38:37,290 --> 01:38:33,909 um I can maybe count on like one hand so 2319 01:38:40,470 --> 01:38:37,300 um this was interesting for me because 2320 01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:40,480 again you know everyone's doing UFO 2321 01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:42,610 research and it all kind of sounds the 2322 01:38:48,359 --> 01:38:46,690 same most of the time this was a little 2323 01:38:51,779 --> 01:38:48,369 different um the problem with being 2324 01:38:53,220 --> 01:38:51,789 different is no one reads you so you 2325 01:38:55,890 --> 01:38:53,230 know that's that's the cross I have to 2326 01:38:58,470 --> 01:38:55,900 bear right you know i i'm not gonna sort 2327 01:39:00,989 --> 01:38:58,480 of have the same following as the 2328 01:39:04,739 --> 01:39:00,999 richard Dolan's and the who's that greek 2329 01:39:07,009 --> 01:39:04,749 guy from ancient aliens and whatever you 2330 01:39:09,390 --> 01:39:07,019 know i'm not gonna have that kind of 2331 01:39:11,580 --> 01:39:09,400 following because i'm not gonna fall i'm 2332 01:39:14,009 --> 01:39:11,590 not really going down the same path they 2333 01:39:17,759 --> 01:39:14,019 are which is the path to fame and glory 2334 01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:17,769 and money and and you know i don't know 2335 01:39:22,020 --> 01:39:19,449 what else being in conferences i don't 2336 01:39:24,719 --> 01:39:22,030 know it's a little more niche i'm the 2337 01:39:25,890 --> 01:39:24,729 niche within the niche that's right 2338 01:39:28,669 --> 01:39:25,900 that's where that's why I chose it I 2339 01:39:30,469 --> 01:39:28,679 guess well good I've got a few more 2340 01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:30,479 submitted questions here's we can yak 2341 01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:35,610 writing you Jeremiah Duggar asks you 2342 01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:37,530 often take a philosophical approach to 2343 01:39:41,270 --> 01:39:39,530 UFOs and this may be a question about 2344 01:39:44,449 --> 01:39:41,280 epistemology the difference between 2345 01:39:46,759 --> 01:39:44,459 knowledge and belief and before we go on 2346 01:39:51,489 --> 01:39:46,769 with the question you know did you have 2347 01:39:57,199 --> 01:39:51,499 any uh anything to oh you know just it 2348 01:40:01,089 --> 01:39:57,209 it's force epistemology there's um so 2349 01:40:06,250 --> 01:40:01,099 how do we know what we know about UFOs 2350 01:40:09,709 --> 01:40:06,260 yeah that is a big question right and 2351 01:40:13,310 --> 01:40:09,719 you know do we have objective knowledge 2352 01:40:16,160 --> 01:40:13,320 on the UFO question like do we actually 2353 01:40:20,929 --> 01:40:16,170 possess sort of anything that we can 2354 01:40:23,750 --> 01:40:20,939 fundamentally say is objective um that 2355 01:40:26,540 --> 01:40:23,760 exists outside of our interpretation you 2356 01:40:28,729 --> 01:40:26,550 know there's not much you know there's 2357 01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:28,739 not much sort of smoking gun evidence 2358 01:40:36,770 --> 01:40:34,650 out there so you know if I had to sort 2359 01:40:38,899 --> 01:40:36,780 of put a number which which this is this 2360 01:40:40,729 --> 01:40:38,909 is very I'm being very philosophically 2361 01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:40,739 lazy here but if I just sort of place a 2362 01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:43,260 number on you know knowledge versus 2363 01:40:47,810 --> 01:40:46,050 belief here I would probably say the UFO 2364 01:40:50,359 --> 01:40:47,820 question is maybe two percent knowledge 2365 01:40:54,589 --> 01:40:50,369 and 98 percent belief because what we do 2366 01:40:58,819 --> 01:40:54,599 have is very limited it's fundamentally 2367 01:41:01,729 --> 01:40:58,829 I think a of belief the UFO question so 2368 01:41:05,509 --> 01:41:01,739 it's a system of ideology and ideologies 2369 01:41:06,830 --> 01:41:05,519 and there's tons of them so maybe that 2370 01:41:10,429 --> 01:41:06,840 that's kind of where I would stand on 2371 01:41:12,890 --> 01:41:10,439 that now it sounds to me here MJ that 2372 01:41:16,029 --> 01:41:12,900 the field consists in large part of 2373 01:41:21,469 --> 01:41:16,039 people reinforcing each other's belief 2374 01:41:23,509 --> 01:41:21,479 of course I mean the whole UFO debate is 2375 01:41:24,589 --> 01:41:23,519 this constant not only reinforcing 2376 01:41:26,569 --> 01:41:24,599 belief but just reinforcing the 2377 01:41:28,129 --> 01:41:26,579 ideologies that exist within those 2378 01:41:30,410 --> 01:41:28,139 beliefs right that it's you know aliens 2379 01:41:32,299 --> 01:41:30,420 from another planet or there's multiple 2380 01:41:33,890 --> 01:41:32,309 races or there's conspiracy theories or 2381 01:41:36,709 --> 01:41:33,900 there's a secret space program or 2382 01:41:38,270 --> 01:41:36,719 there's you know secret government 2383 01:41:39,799 --> 01:41:38,280 organizations that are reverse 2384 01:41:41,959 --> 01:41:39,809 engineering alien technology that 2385 01:41:43,729 --> 01:41:41,969 crashed in Roswell in 1947 like 2386 01:41:47,719 --> 01:41:43,739 these are all ideologies the these are 2387 01:41:50,239 --> 01:41:47,729 not sort of objective ideas or sorry 2388 01:41:53,359 --> 01:41:50,249 objective sort of truth claims that 2389 01:41:55,160 --> 01:41:53,369 someone can make there it's a system of 2390 01:41:59,120 --> 01:41:55,170 beliefs right and we have to take a lot 2391 01:42:02,719 --> 01:41:59,130 of leaps and logic to get from you know 2392 01:42:06,410 --> 01:42:02,729 one step of the equation to the next in 2393 01:42:08,089 --> 01:42:06,420 the UFO question so of course yeah 2394 01:42:09,709 --> 01:42:08,099 there's tons of reinforcement the fact 2395 01:42:12,469 --> 01:42:09,719 that Roswell is still talked about I 2396 01:42:16,910 --> 01:42:12,479 think is a great example of that you 2397 01:42:18,709 --> 01:42:16,920 know really what do we what objective 2398 01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:18,719 knowledge do we have concerning Roswell 2399 01:42:24,020 --> 01:42:20,610 epistemological II what do we know about 2400 01:42:26,569 --> 01:42:24,030 Roswell not very much if you really look 2401 01:42:29,569 --> 01:42:26,579 at the actual hard evidence you know 2402 01:42:30,890 --> 01:42:29,579 what do we have in hand that we can wave 2403 01:42:35,359 --> 01:42:30,900 in front of everyone and say look what 2404 01:42:36,830 --> 01:42:35,369 we have and and what have we built for 2405 01:42:38,859 --> 01:42:36,840 ourselves what are the stories we've 2406 01:42:41,089 --> 01:42:38,869 told ourselves what are the the 2407 01:42:43,219 --> 01:42:41,099 reinforced beliefs and ideologies that 2408 01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:43,229 we've made for ourselves that have made 2409 01:42:48,919 --> 01:42:46,530 Roswell something Roswell is this 2410 01:42:55,430 --> 01:42:48,929 beautiful example of ideology gone awry 2411 01:42:57,560 --> 01:42:55,440 um you know nobody really cares that we 2412 01:42:59,689 --> 01:42:57,570 don't have like the crashed flying 2413 01:43:01,790 --> 01:42:59,699 saucer from Waze Roswell on public 2414 01:43:03,709 --> 01:43:01,800 display no one could care less it's the 2415 01:43:05,779 --> 01:43:03,719 fact that we believe it's happening 2416 01:43:07,279 --> 01:43:05,789 right and our belief that had happened 2417 01:43:10,279 --> 01:43:07,289 or our belief that this sort of 2418 01:43:15,080 --> 01:43:10,289 conspiracy exists or whatever it is that 2419 01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:15,090 has made it true at least ideologically 2420 01:43:19,879 --> 01:43:17,610 true maybe not objectively true well 2421 01:43:22,069 --> 01:43:19,889 we've been disassembling Roswell 2422 01:43:25,700 --> 01:43:22,079 quite a bit over the past year on the 2423 01:43:28,899 --> 01:43:25,710 show and I know that Kevin Dee Randall 2424 01:43:32,919 --> 01:43:28,909 who once was a devout Roswell believer 2425 01:43:38,290 --> 01:43:32,929 has recanted some of his certainties 2426 01:43:41,359 --> 01:43:38,300 well you know the problem is this I 2427 01:43:42,500 --> 01:43:41,369 talked about this in a blog post my most 2428 01:43:44,689 --> 01:43:42,510 recent blog post I don't how about 2429 01:43:47,270 --> 01:43:44,699 Roswell but I talk about sort of the UFO 2430 01:43:50,330 --> 01:43:47,280 question as being hyper real especially 2431 01:43:52,339 --> 01:43:50,340 it comes to aliens is and I think what 2432 01:43:54,250 --> 01:43:52,349 we what we've done with Roswell is we've 2433 01:43:58,359 --> 01:43:54,260 made Roswell 2434 01:44:02,290 --> 01:43:58,369 hyper-reality we can't separate the fact 2435 01:44:04,959 --> 01:44:02,300 or the the facts of roswell from the 2436 01:44:07,660 --> 01:44:04,969 stories about Roswell we can't separate 2437 01:44:10,180 --> 01:44:07,670 them at all they've become one thing so 2438 01:44:12,759 --> 01:44:10,190 when we talk about Roswell anytime we 2439 01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:12,769 say the word Roswell we automatically 2440 01:44:19,839 --> 01:44:15,050 bring to the table all of this baggage 2441 01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:19,849 with us that that Roswell has from you 2442 01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:22,130 know Nick Redferns most sort of you know 2443 01:44:27,970 --> 01:44:26,090 recent thing that it's some sort of it 2444 01:44:28,330 --> 01:44:27,980 was like a Japanese test pilot or 2445 01:44:30,790 --> 01:44:28,340 something 2446 01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:30,800 I remember his book was but he makes the 2447 01:44:34,750 --> 01:44:32,090 claim that it was like like a you know 2448 01:44:37,290 --> 01:44:34,760 Operation Paperclip in a sense but you 2449 01:44:40,750 --> 01:44:37,300 know with with post-war sort of Japanese 2450 01:44:41,649 --> 01:44:40,760 POWs or something all the way to a crash 2451 01:44:43,629 --> 01:44:41,659 flying saucer 2452 01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:43,639 all the way to project mogul and it's 2453 01:44:49,750 --> 01:44:46,730 just a balloon all the way to you know 2454 01:44:51,220 --> 01:44:49,760 the fact that Roswell was not even a 2455 01:44:52,810 --> 01:44:51,230 thing nothing happened at Roswell it 2456 01:44:55,229 --> 01:44:52,820 actually didn't happen there it happened 2457 01:44:57,669 --> 01:44:55,239 you know with Dulce so you know there's 2458 01:45:00,009 --> 01:44:57,679 we have all of these different theories 2459 01:45:01,209 --> 01:45:00,019 and ideas of any stories and really 2460 01:45:03,430 --> 01:45:01,219 that's all there are there stories about 2461 01:45:06,990 --> 01:45:03,440 what happened at Roswell and and we 2462 01:45:09,310 --> 01:45:07,000 can't separate those stories from the 2463 01:45:11,379 --> 01:45:09,320 reality of the situation the capital our 2464 01:45:14,259 --> 01:45:11,389 reality of the situation the stories 2465 01:45:16,890 --> 01:45:14,269 have become the reality and this is why 2466 01:45:20,169 --> 01:45:16,900 Roswell sort of hyperreal it's it's it's 2467 01:45:20,950 --> 01:45:20,179 because it doesn't matter what actually 2468 01:45:23,500 --> 01:45:20,960 happened at Roswell 2469 01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:23,510 it really doesn't not anymore all right 2470 01:45:29,529 --> 01:45:25,250 let's get into more of that our next 2471 01:45:32,080 --> 01:45:29,539 segment we've got MJ vinius Jean 2472 01:45:41,130 --> 01:45:32,090 Steinberg Kurt Collins you're in the 2473 01:45:49,570 --> 01:45:45,040 thank you for listening to GCN 2474 01:45:51,790 --> 01:45:49,580 be sure to visit GCN live.com today we 2475 01:45:55,090 --> 01:45:51,800 also have swag you know we have all 2476 01:45:55,930 --> 01:45:55,100 these exclusive para cast things that 2477 01:45:57,880 --> 01:45:55,940 you can buy 2478 01:46:00,730 --> 01:45:57,890 we've got like I guess 60 or so 2479 01:46:04,270 --> 01:46:00,740 different items and entails t-shirts 2480 01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:04,280 sleeves for notebook computers iPad 2481 01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:07,610 cases mouse pads the para cast jumbo 2482 01:46:11,740 --> 01:46:09,890 tote bag all sorts of t-shirts 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power cast to hear that show you've got 2539 01:48:37,990 --> 01:48:35,449 to subscribe to the para cast + @ + stop 2540 01:48:40,959 --> 01:48:38,000 the para cast comm you go there we give 2541 01:48:45,580 --> 01:48:40,969 you the signup instructions it's dollar 2542 01:48:47,470 --> 01:48:45,590 49 a week half the price of a Starbucks 2543 01:48:48,939 --> 01:48:47,480 coffee and you also get the commercial 2544 01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:48,949 free version of this show you like that 2545 01:48:54,970 --> 01:48:52,250 deal on guys definitely know it son so 2546 01:48:58,300 --> 01:48:54,980 unfortunate as we progress and look at 2547 01:49:02,160 --> 01:48:58,310 the culture that Roswell is the linchpin 2548 01:49:05,709 --> 01:49:02,170 UFO case of the ages that started in 2549 01:49:08,320 --> 01:49:05,719 such a strange way that it happened and 2550 01:49:11,709 --> 01:49:08,330 then they said it's only a balloon and 2551 01:49:14,140 --> 01:49:11,719 then 30 years later people wake up as if 2552 01:49:16,090 --> 01:49:14,150 they were asleep and suddenly Roswell 2553 01:49:18,550 --> 01:49:16,100 was a thing because somebody talked to 2554 01:49:20,890 --> 01:49:18,560 Stanton Friedman at some kind of meeting 2555 01:49:23,590 --> 01:49:20,900 and they follow it up and William Moore 2556 01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:23,600 is involved and they get Charles Berlitz 2557 01:49:30,010 --> 01:49:27,050 who never met a fake story he couldn't 2558 01:49:32,770 --> 01:49:30,020 promote I knew Charles Berlitz and he 2559 01:49:35,170 --> 01:49:32,780 had this twinkle in his eye and he said 2560 01:49:37,990 --> 01:49:35,180 to me I'm as honest as the day is long 2561 01:49:40,959 --> 01:49:38,000 and you know when someone says that to 2562 01:49:43,090 --> 01:49:40,969 you what he's really telling you who 2563 01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:43,100 wants to take it from here I can say a 2564 01:49:48,490 --> 01:49:45,170 couple of things about Roswell because I 2565 01:49:50,890 --> 01:49:48,500 it got all the press but I've got a 2566 01:49:54,910 --> 01:49:50,900 friend in - Ivan - boy and he's going 2567 01:49:58,420 --> 01:49:54,920 back in examining these own newspaper 2568 01:49:59,920 --> 01:49:58,430 stories and they're fascinating 2569 01:50:02,410 --> 01:49:59,930 especially you know many of these you've 2570 01:50:04,950 --> 01:50:02,420 read bits about in UFO history but a 2571 01:50:06,919 --> 01:50:04,960 couple things that in this surrounding 2572 01:50:09,649 --> 01:50:06,929 Roswell era 2573 01:50:12,410 --> 01:50:09,659 they were finding balloons all over the 2574 01:50:14,509 --> 01:50:12,420 place or the the rawan targets and 2575 01:50:17,149 --> 01:50:14,519 people were saying hey there's a flying 2576 01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:17,159 saucer well they didn't make national 2577 01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:19,170 headlines but they were in the papers 2578 01:50:23,929 --> 01:50:21,570 and that wasn't the only time there were 2579 01:50:26,899 --> 01:50:23,939 false alarms a few years later they 2580 01:50:29,359 --> 01:50:26,909 found these disc shaped aircraft in a 2581 01:50:31,250 --> 01:50:29,369 barn and it turned out a guy had been 2582 01:50:33,290 --> 01:50:31,260 been you know was a failed to aircraft 2583 01:50:35,569 --> 01:50:33,300 experiment at the 30s but nevertheless 2584 01:50:38,299 --> 01:50:35,579 they said secret of the flying saucers 2585 01:50:41,540 --> 01:50:38,309 found but since that was definitely 2586 01:50:43,939 --> 01:50:41,550 traced to an inventor it wasn't 2587 01:50:46,160 --> 01:50:43,949 something that a ufologist could unearth 2588 01:50:49,969 --> 01:50:46,170 and say that you know later that hey 2589 01:50:53,929 --> 01:50:49,979 this was the alien cover-up so it almost 2590 01:50:56,989 --> 01:50:53,939 reminds me of the old Dewey defeats 2591 01:50:59,270 --> 01:50:56,999 Truman headline it was a premature story 2592 01:51:03,709 --> 01:50:59,280 and that's about it to me 2593 01:51:06,799 --> 01:51:03,719 the thing I will just toss this MJ one 2594 01:51:11,839 --> 01:51:06,809 of the core beliefs in the study of UFOs 2595 01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:11,849 was it was Don Keaton establishes but he 2596 01:51:15,949 --> 01:51:13,650 popularized and that was a nation of a 2597 01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:15,959 cover-up and the belief in a cover-up is 2598 01:51:21,439 --> 01:51:19,170 as central as anything about aliens and 2599 01:51:23,629 --> 01:51:21,449 you know even some people who uh who 2600 01:51:25,819 --> 01:51:23,639 don't follow UFOs believe that the 2601 01:51:28,699 --> 01:51:25,829 government is capable of some massive 2602 01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:28,709 conspiracy cover-up and I think a lot of 2603 01:51:33,379 --> 01:51:31,530 cases well it becomes if there's no 2604 01:51:34,699 --> 01:51:33,389 evidence that proves the cover-up is 2605 01:51:36,290 --> 01:51:34,709 real right 2606 01:51:38,629 --> 01:51:36,300 no proves it because they're basically 2607 01:51:40,790 --> 01:51:38,639 covering it up so we can't see it so 2608 01:51:43,399 --> 01:51:40,800 since we can't see the evidence it's 2609 01:51:45,529 --> 01:51:43,409 covered up it's like a circular theory 2610 01:51:47,149 --> 01:51:45,539 it this is the ultimate problem with 2611 01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:47,159 conspiracy theories right is getting it 2612 01:51:50,120 --> 01:51:48,449 doesn't matter what the truth is right 2613 01:51:52,910 --> 01:51:50,130 it doesn't actually matter what the 2614 01:51:54,739 --> 01:51:52,920 reality of the situation is it's all 2615 01:51:56,839 --> 01:51:54,749 that baggage you bring the table if you 2616 01:51:59,569 --> 01:51:56,849 sort of believe in the conspiracy it's 2617 01:52:01,160 --> 01:51:59,579 gonna continue to spin sort of over and 2618 01:52:03,529 --> 01:52:01,170 over and over again and just in you know 2619 01:52:05,569 --> 01:52:03,539 it's gonna take different shape the UFO 2620 01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:05,579 community and the UFO subculture and 2621 01:52:10,549 --> 01:52:07,760 sort of UFO discourse in general 2622 01:52:12,500 --> 01:52:10,559 conspiracy is a huge component of it it 2623 01:52:15,799 --> 01:52:12,510 would be very interesting to think about 2624 01:52:18,169 --> 01:52:15,809 what UFO discourse what UFO debate would 2625 01:52:19,699 --> 01:52:18,179 look like if everyone trusted their 2626 01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:19,709 government right like can you imagine 2627 01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:21,270 what 2628 01:52:28,690 --> 01:52:24,810 the UFO world would sort of talk about 2629 01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:28,700 if there was no ideology of conspiracy 2630 01:52:31,940 --> 01:52:30,690 it will be a totally different 2631 01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:31,950 conversation we wouldn't be talking 2632 01:52:36,350 --> 01:52:34,050 about Roswell Roswell abhi will be a 2633 01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:36,360 non-issue right because again roswell 2634 01:52:42,470 --> 01:52:39,330 hinges upon the conspiracy you get rid 2635 01:52:44,540 --> 01:52:42,480 of that there's nothing and this is sort 2636 01:52:47,209 --> 01:52:44,550 of a lot of UFO cases and this is a lot 2637 01:52:50,300 --> 01:52:47,219 of UFO speculation a lot of UFO theory 2638 01:52:52,340 --> 01:52:50,310 it a lot of it hinges upon the 2639 01:52:55,030 --> 01:52:52,350 conspiracy from with the government or 2640 01:52:57,830 --> 01:52:55,040 some shadow government or whatever I 2641 01:53:01,430 --> 01:52:57,840 can't I can't even imagine what the UFO 2642 01:53:02,930 --> 01:53:01,440 sort of community would do if for some 2643 01:53:04,280 --> 01:53:02,940 reason you know magically everyone 2644 01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:04,290 trusts the government you know what 2645 01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:07,650 would happen to UFO discourse where 2646 01:53:12,260 --> 01:53:10,050 would it go what would it look like I 2647 01:53:14,060 --> 01:53:12,270 don't know that's that's an interesting 2648 01:53:16,520 --> 01:53:14,070 thing to think about well part of the 2649 01:53:19,340 --> 01:53:16,530 problem there is this entire scenario 2650 01:53:21,080 --> 01:53:19,350 was painted early on when the field was 2651 01:53:24,350 --> 01:53:21,090 more or less established in the days of 2652 01:53:26,470 --> 01:53:24,360 major Donald Kehoe he was going around 2653 01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:26,480 talking about a silence group that 2654 01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:29,250 people within the government were hiding 2655 01:53:36,860 --> 01:53:32,370 the secret of the UFOs and I thought 2656 01:53:38,990 --> 01:53:36,870 charitably that maybe what happened here 2657 01:53:42,650 --> 01:53:39,000 is when the UFOs were first being seen 2658 01:53:45,350 --> 01:53:42,660 regardless of the truth they didn't know 2659 01:53:46,729 --> 01:53:45,360 what they were and you couldn't have the 2660 01:53:48,620 --> 01:53:46,739 government saying you know what we don't 2661 01:53:50,450 --> 01:53:48,630 know if those things are but they don't 2662 01:53:50,930 --> 01:53:50,460 appear to represent a threat and leave 2663 01:53:53,270 --> 01:53:50,940 it at that 2664 01:53:55,550 --> 01:53:53,280 they couldn't say that so you have then 2665 01:53:57,170 --> 01:53:55,560 the conspiracy goes out of key host so 2666 01:53:59,709 --> 01:53:57,180 many people read those books I read 2667 01:54:02,630 --> 01:53:59,719 those books a lot of people did and 2668 01:54:05,150 --> 01:54:02,640 those who are influenced simply spread 2669 01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:05,160 the story it's kind of like with Roswell 2670 01:54:09,530 --> 01:54:07,110 once the first Roswell book came out 2671 01:54:11,000 --> 01:54:09,540 people started looking into it and then 2672 01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:11,010 you had a whole bunch of people and you 2673 01:54:14,540 --> 01:54:12,690 built a whole cottage industry of 2674 01:54:17,180 --> 01:54:14,550 Roswell you have a whole cottage 2675 01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:17,190 industry of disclosure and even though 2676 01:54:25,130 --> 01:54:21,410 it's way way beyond what Kehoe intended 2677 01:54:27,229 --> 01:54:25,140 this is what the feel has become it 2678 01:54:29,870 --> 01:54:27,239 doesn't matter whether the government 2679 01:54:31,580 --> 01:54:29,880 knows anything or not if there are UFOs 2680 01:54:33,030 --> 01:54:31,590 it represents some kind of real 2681 01:54:35,580 --> 01:54:33,040 phenomenon 2682 01:54:37,290 --> 01:54:35,590 it doesn't matter what they know none of 2683 01:54:41,250 --> 01:54:37,300 that matters all we want to know is 2684 01:54:43,140 --> 01:54:41,260 what's happening and once we find that 2685 01:54:45,530 --> 01:54:43,150 out maybe we could look into the other 2686 01:54:47,940 --> 01:54:45,540 things the other problem is early on 2687 01:54:49,470 --> 01:54:47,950 this is another thing we've talked about 2688 01:54:51,780 --> 01:54:49,480 on the power cast lately 2689 01:54:53,910 --> 01:54:51,790 early on it does appear the government 2690 01:54:56,580 --> 01:54:53,920 was engaged in some experiments that 2691 01:54:58,980 --> 01:54:56,590 were not too nice and certain that's 2692 01:55:02,030 --> 01:54:58,990 something that Nick Redfern points to in 2693 01:55:03,990 --> 01:55:02,040 his two books on Roswell 2694 01:55:07,530 --> 01:55:04,000 body-snatchers in the desert and the 2695 01:55:09,930 --> 01:55:07,540 main reason look and that's you know 2696 01:55:12,150 --> 01:55:09,940 very unfortunate it doesn't mean there's 2697 01:55:14,250 --> 01:55:12,160 a UFO connection it may also be the 2698 01:55:18,030 --> 01:55:14,260 government takes advantage of the 2699 01:55:20,850 --> 01:55:18,040 culture and uses UFOs as an excuse to 2700 01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:20,860 hide something else I wonder also in 2701 01:55:25,380 --> 01:55:23,170 terms of abductions this is another one 2702 01:55:30,120 --> 01:55:25,390 where they shoot me down and that is 2703 01:55:32,160 --> 01:55:30,130 what about Betty and Barney Hill they 2704 01:55:36,270 --> 01:55:32,170 live near a military base in New 2705 01:55:38,340 --> 01:55:36,280 Hampshire and probably could be 2706 01:55:40,890 --> 01:55:38,350 candidates for some kind of experiment 2707 01:55:43,140 --> 01:55:40,900 because the beings and the structure and 2708 01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:43,150 the things that happened were in many 2709 01:55:52,020 --> 01:55:46,210 ways different for their abduction than 2710 01:55:55,230 --> 01:55:52,030 others I mean they didn't get in touch 2711 01:55:58,890 --> 01:55:55,240 with grey aliens they look kind of human 2712 01:56:02,220 --> 01:55:58,900 didn't they and their story emerged 2713 01:56:04,860 --> 01:56:02,230 under hypnosis so there's there's a 2714 01:56:08,490 --> 01:56:04,870 factor to think about so you know how 2715 01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:08,500 much it did the experience was Oh hard 2716 01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:10,690 dream you know that and that kind of 2717 01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:11,890 goes back to what we're talking about 2718 01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:13,330 earlier in the show you know their 2719 01:56:17,660 --> 01:56:15,130 interpretation of 'i'm unpleasant 2720 01:56:21,450 --> 01:56:17,670 memories are you remember remembering 2721 01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:21,460 the event or is it your emotional 2722 01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:25,570 interpretation right yeah exactly right 2723 01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:28,450 and that's kind of the to go back to 2724 01:56:32,100 --> 01:56:30,370 that question right you know do they 2725 01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:32,110 objectively these beings wherever they 2726 01:56:37,350 --> 01:56:33,730 were do they objectively look like that 2727 01:56:39,090 --> 01:56:37,360 or you know is our Betty and Barney Hill 2728 01:56:42,120 --> 01:56:39,100 interpreting them to look like that 2729 01:56:43,740 --> 01:56:42,130 because of you know some other reason 2730 01:56:45,750 --> 01:56:43,750 whether it's emotional or whether it's 2731 01:56:47,399 --> 01:56:45,760 sort of previous experiences or 2732 01:56:48,330 --> 01:56:47,409 whether it's just you know maybe the 2733 01:56:50,279 --> 01:56:48,340 interaction with something maybe 2734 01:56:52,649 --> 01:56:50,289 something sort of did pick them up some 2735 01:56:55,259 --> 01:56:52,659 intelligent other and simply the way 2736 01:56:57,810 --> 01:56:55,269 they interpreted that thing to look was 2737 01:56:59,970 --> 01:56:57,820 in this way and it sort of provided a la 2738 01:57:02,609 --> 01:56:59,980 co-creation from Greg Bishop they sort 2739 01:57:07,109 --> 01:57:02,619 of provided the reality for which this 2740 01:57:10,549 --> 01:57:07,119 thing to kind of manifest itself so yeah 2741 01:57:13,950 --> 01:57:10,559 you know it really could be anything um 2742 01:57:16,140 --> 01:57:13,960 just to quickly go back to Roswell I I'm 2743 01:57:19,410 --> 01:57:16,150 gonna ask you guys a question um you 2744 01:57:21,660 --> 01:57:19,420 know what would Roswell be if when that 2745 01:57:25,049 --> 01:57:21,670 envelope showed up in Stanton Friedman 2746 01:57:27,299 --> 01:57:25,059 Friedman's that mailbox uh you know if 2747 01:57:28,410 --> 01:57:27,309 he just was like yeah and he just kind 2748 01:57:29,759 --> 01:57:28,420 of was like it's probably nothing any 2749 01:57:30,569 --> 01:57:29,769 threw it away you know and he never 2750 01:57:32,970 --> 01:57:30,579 talked about it 2751 01:57:35,250 --> 01:57:32,980 you know what would Roswell be today if 2752 01:57:38,580 --> 01:57:35,260 that never happened we're gonna find out 2753 01:57:48,410 --> 01:57:38,590 in our next segment with gene and Kurt 2754 01:57:53,549 --> 01:57:50,910 neighbors I want to tell you about my 2755 01:57:55,950 --> 01:57:53,559 favorite graphics app it's the 2756 01:57:57,899 --> 01:57:55,960 award-winning graphic converter you know 2757 01:57:59,819 --> 01:57:57,909 graphic converter is the universal 2758 01:58:02,790 --> 01:57:59,829 genius for photo editing on your Mac 2759 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--> 02:01:22,920 garage yesterday she was trimming her 2842 02:01:26,060 --> 02:01:24,690 hedges what's her secret I heard she was 2843 02:01:28,399 --> 02:01:26,070 eating this new super berry called the 2844 02:01:30,319 --> 02:01:28,409 aronia berry roni Oh what Rooney berries 2845 02:01:31,700 --> 02:01:30,329 from super berries calm they're known 2846 02:01:33,050 --> 02:01:31,710 for having one of the highest levels of 2847 02:01:34,790 --> 02:01:33,060 antioxidants that helps with overall 2848 02:01:37,729 --> 02:01:34,800 wellness where can we get them go to 2849 02:01:39,500 --> 02:01:37,739 super berries calm / radio and right now 2850 02:01:41,660 --> 02:01:39,510 we get a free smoothie recipe book with 2851 02:01:43,850 --> 02:01:41,670 our order plus we can say four dollars a 2852 02:01:45,740 --> 02:01:43,860 check out I can't wait I've got lots of 2853 02:01:47,990 --> 02:01:45,750 projects I need to get done yes you do 2854 02:01:54,410 --> 02:01:48,000 choose health eat purple super berries 2855 02:01:56,060 --> 02:01:54,420 calm we'd like to hear from you if you 2856 02:01:59,300 --> 02:01:56,070 have a comment or question about the 2857 02:02:00,530 --> 02:01:59,310 para cast send it to news at the para 2858 02:02:03,919 --> 02:02:00,540 cast com 2859 02:02:06,020 --> 02:02:03,929 that's news at the para cast calm and 2860 02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:06,030 don't forget to visit our famous para 2861 02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:09,210 cast community forums at forum dot the 2862 02:02:17,419 --> 02:02:15,210 para cast calm m.j Benaiah Kurt Collins 2863 02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:17,429 Jean Steinberg notice I put my name last 2864 02:02:21,950 --> 02:02:19,650 but the interesting question asked in 2865 02:02:24,410 --> 02:02:21,960 our previous segment on this episode the 2866 02:02:26,200 --> 02:02:24,420 power cast if Stanton Friedman hadn't 2867 02:02:30,740 --> 02:02:26,210 jumped on Roswell 2868 02:02:32,899 --> 02:02:30,750 what would have happened if Frank Scully 2869 02:02:36,310 --> 02:02:32,909 didn't write this crazy book about Aztec 2870 02:02:39,800 --> 02:02:36,320 would they cover that if Kenneth Arnold 2871 02:02:41,510 --> 02:02:39,810 didn't report nine disks shaped objects 2872 02:02:44,930 --> 02:02:41,520 while flying his private plane near 2873 02:02:47,359 --> 02:02:44,940 Mount Rainier would there even be a UFO 2874 02:02:50,209 --> 02:02:47,369 mystery this is the big question Kurt 2875 02:02:52,580 --> 02:02:50,219 I'm asking you okay sure well do you 2876 02:02:54,770 --> 02:02:52,590 know Jesus expanded the question so now 2877 02:02:56,810 --> 02:02:54,780 it's a real head-scratcher um yeah I 2878 02:02:59,030 --> 02:02:56,820 think you know to answer the the 2879 02:03:01,520 --> 02:02:59,040 original question if now for Stanton 2880 02:03:03,410 --> 02:03:01,530 Friedman calling attention to it no I 2881 02:03:05,030 --> 02:03:03,420 don't I don't think that anyone would 2882 02:03:06,620 --> 02:03:05,040 have dragged it up you know I mentioned 2883 02:03:08,569 --> 02:03:06,630 those other headlines that were false 2884 02:03:11,359 --> 02:03:08,579 alarms and I think it would probably 2885 02:03:14,540 --> 02:03:11,369 remain in that category it was mentioned 2886 02:03:16,160 --> 02:03:14,550 in a couple of books as a mistake so it 2887 02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:16,170 would it would stand there but so then 2888 02:03:20,209 --> 02:03:18,210 we have to ask what would rise to take 2889 02:03:21,950 --> 02:03:20,219 its place so you know wouldn't would 2890 02:03:23,020 --> 02:03:21,960 another case you know something 2891 02:03:26,020 --> 02:03:23,030 something newer 2892 02:03:28,930 --> 02:03:26,030 I mean in Roswell stands stands alone in 2893 02:03:30,609 --> 02:03:28,940 a case that was retroactively ly 2894 02:03:32,529 --> 02:03:30,619 important most everything else was 2895 02:03:33,220 --> 02:03:32,539 recognized and he contemporary news 2896 02:03:35,790 --> 02:03:33,230 coverage 2897 02:03:38,799 --> 02:03:35,800 you know the Socorro case was reported 2898 02:03:40,839 --> 02:03:38,809 it was in the news the evening that 2899 02:03:42,970 --> 02:03:40,849 happened I mean a lot of these things 2900 02:03:44,890 --> 02:03:42,980 received immediate attention and 2901 02:03:47,169 --> 02:03:44,900 immediate investigation you know whether 2902 02:03:49,330 --> 02:03:47,179 it was competent or not so it could be 2903 02:03:49,870 --> 02:03:49,340 there would be something like that but 2904 02:03:51,970 --> 02:03:49,880 no I 2905 02:03:53,589 --> 02:03:51,980 I think Roswell would have been left in 2906 02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:53,599 the dust I think the interesting thing 2907 02:04:00,399 --> 02:03:57,130 then you know when we think about how 2908 02:04:02,049 --> 02:04:00,409 mainstream culture perceives the UFO 2909 02:04:05,109 --> 02:04:02,059 question and and what the mainstream 2910 02:04:05,620 --> 02:04:05,119 sort of culture knows about the UFO sort 2911 02:04:07,510 --> 02:04:05,630 of world 2912 02:04:09,479 --> 02:04:07,520 if you would have sort of any person on 2913 02:04:11,859 --> 02:04:09,489 the street and you say the word Roswell 2914 02:04:15,250 --> 02:04:11,869 they've heard of it right and they've 2915 02:04:16,419 --> 02:04:15,260 heard of it because the UFO crash right 2916 02:04:17,830 --> 02:04:16,429 they'll sort of at least they'll say 2917 02:04:18,700 --> 02:04:17,840 like wait is that like aliens or 2918 02:04:19,870 --> 02:04:18,710 something like they'll they'll kind of 2919 02:04:21,669 --> 02:04:19,880 have that moment you know they'll 2920 02:04:23,200 --> 02:04:21,679 generally know kind of a little bit of 2921 02:04:26,649 --> 02:04:23,210 what I know and it's interesting that 2922 02:04:29,439 --> 02:04:26,659 the entire UFO community sort of relies 2923 02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:29,449 on this mainstream knowledge that little 2924 02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:31,250 bit of mainstream knowledge about UFOs 2925 02:04:34,779 --> 02:04:32,690 just you know to kind of keep us 2926 02:04:37,899 --> 02:04:34,789 legitimate and it's funny that it all 2927 02:04:40,390 --> 02:04:37,909 chalks up to a Canadian who got an 2928 02:04:42,910 --> 02:04:40,400 envelope and he decided to pursue it 2929 02:04:44,140 --> 02:04:42,920 right it's interesting that you know 2930 02:04:46,390 --> 02:04:44,150 like you said before Jean you know 2931 02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:46,400 Roswell is a sort of linchpin case for 2932 02:04:52,270 --> 02:04:49,130 the UFO community it's interesting that 2933 02:04:56,049 --> 02:04:52,280 it literally was one man and and it was 2934 02:04:58,450 --> 02:04:56,059 sort of a Canadian guy who provided sort 2935 02:05:01,060 --> 02:04:58,460 of the best American UFO case in history 2936 02:05:04,799 --> 02:05:01,070 and sort of made it to what it is today 2937 02:05:08,169 --> 02:05:04,809 and and has created this giant sort of 2938 02:05:10,689 --> 02:05:08,179 ideological bubble that has influenced 2939 02:05:12,549 --> 02:05:10,699 so much within the UFO community and 2940 02:05:14,890 --> 02:05:12,559 within UFO culture and within even 2941 02:05:16,330 --> 02:05:14,900 popular culture you know does he get 2942 02:05:18,010 --> 02:05:16,340 credit for any of that I'm just 2943 02:05:21,910 --> 02:05:18,020 wondering you know does he go home at 2944 02:05:24,220 --> 02:05:21,920 night and pat himself on the back Jean I 2945 02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:24,230 have a question about in this you know I 2946 02:05:27,760 --> 02:05:25,730 don't want to talk about Roswell but I 2947 02:05:30,310 --> 02:05:27,770 do want to talk about it its influence 2948 02:05:31,610 --> 02:05:30,320 and timing because as I understand it I 2949 02:05:34,310 --> 02:05:31,620 was around then 2950 02:05:37,340 --> 02:05:34,320 but I wasn't paying much attention the 2951 02:05:39,590 --> 02:05:37,350 UFO scene so what I want to know is the 2952 02:05:43,040 --> 02:05:39,600 way I hear it is that with the ideas 2953 02:05:47,410 --> 02:05:43,050 floating around from the hynix line of 2954 02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:47,420 thinking and John fillet and John keel 2955 02:05:53,270 --> 02:05:50,610 and there was a lot of psychic thought 2956 02:05:54,890 --> 02:05:53,280 and so they were moving away from the 2957 02:05:56,570 --> 02:05:54,900 nuts and bolts you know that had been 2958 02:05:58,940 --> 02:05:56,580 explored it was getting nowhere and so 2959 02:06:01,730 --> 02:05:58,950 these new ideas were coming in and in 2960 02:06:05,330 --> 02:06:01,740 the way I hear it is that the roswell 2961 02:06:07,220 --> 02:06:05,340 came in to sort of rally this idea and 2962 02:06:09,680 --> 02:06:07,230 you know it was it was more like it was 2963 02:06:11,630 --> 02:06:09,690 kind of like the keyhole thing except 2964 02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:11,640 you know here there was supposed to be 2965 02:06:17,360 --> 02:06:14,490 little bodies and and all these things 2966 02:06:18,620 --> 02:06:17,370 and went way further so what do you what 2967 02:06:21,740 --> 02:06:18,630 do you think about the way that that 2968 02:06:24,430 --> 02:06:21,750 changed and did it did it hurt the 2969 02:06:26,750 --> 02:06:24,440 questions that were being asked well I 2970 02:06:28,550 --> 02:06:26,760 understand here there was a UFO field 2971 02:06:31,010 --> 02:06:28,560 before Roswell obviously because it 2972 02:06:33,890 --> 02:06:31,020 didn't happen into the late 70s that 2973 02:06:37,400 --> 02:06:33,900 this was rediscovered it disappeared for 2974 02:06:39,500 --> 02:06:37,410 thirty years until the book that bore 2975 02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:39,510 the name of Charles Berlitz and William 2976 02:06:43,190 --> 02:06:41,610 Moore and Stanton Friedman even though 2977 02:06:45,290 --> 02:06:43,200 he did a lot of the work was kind of an 2978 02:06:47,330 --> 02:06:45,300 afterthought he got a credit hope you 2979 02:06:50,210 --> 02:06:47,340 got some of the royalties before that 2980 02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:50,220 there was a UFO field there was J Allen 2981 02:06:54,710 --> 02:06:52,890 Hynek there was Socorro New Mexico there 2982 02:06:56,420 --> 02:06:54,720 were a lot of other cases that people 2983 02:06:59,240 --> 02:06:56,430 were looking at and I didn't even 2984 02:07:01,070 --> 02:06:59,250 consider Roswell until the early 80s for 2985 02:07:02,960 --> 02:07:01,080 one of a thousand reasons because it 2986 02:07:05,090 --> 02:07:02,970 took time for the book to get out for 2987 02:07:06,860 --> 02:07:05,100 other people to pick up on the Roswell 2988 02:07:10,250 --> 02:07:06,870 incident and then of course for the TV 2989 02:07:13,520 --> 02:07:10,260 movie that came before that Roswell was 2990 02:07:15,410 --> 02:07:13,530 not a serious factor and we didn't 2991 02:07:17,060 --> 02:07:15,420 consider it to be a serious factor as I 2992 02:07:19,220 --> 02:07:17,070 said there were live other cases we 2993 02:07:21,950 --> 02:07:19,230 talked about we talked about Washington 2994 02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:21,960 DC 1952 we bring up Arnold because it 2995 02:07:29,060 --> 02:07:26,130 was the progenitor of a UFO case we 2996 02:07:32,510 --> 02:07:29,070 bring up Socorro New Mexico we bring up 2997 02:07:35,900 --> 02:07:32,520 sightings that appro received from South 2998 02:07:38,810 --> 02:07:35,910 America so to me Roswell was never 2999 02:07:41,630 --> 02:07:38,820 important and even when it was important 3000 02:07:43,450 --> 02:07:41,640 I had my concerns about mj-12 and all 3001 02:07:47,620 --> 02:07:43,460 this other baggage 3002 02:07:51,030 --> 02:07:47,630 the company the case so if you want to 3003 02:07:55,570 --> 02:07:51,040 say would the UFO field still exist if 3004 02:07:57,669 --> 02:07:55,580 Roswell was taken off the menu sure cuz 3005 02:08:01,120 --> 02:07:57,679 it did because a lot of other things 3006 02:08:03,820 --> 02:08:01,130 were happening it's possibly a sidestep 3007 02:08:05,140 --> 02:08:03,830 now I think if we want to be considerate 3008 02:08:08,470 --> 02:08:05,150 Oriole and I'll just do that for the 3009 02:08:11,140 --> 02:08:08,480 heck of it if somebody wanted to really 3010 02:08:13,959 --> 02:08:11,150 mess up this field they push the hell 3011 02:08:19,060 --> 02:08:13,969 out of Roswell because it's a blind 3012 02:08:21,970 --> 02:08:19,070 alley agreed right but the other part of 3013 02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:21,980 that was didn't it limit the type of 3014 02:08:26,530 --> 02:08:24,650 investigation I mean instead of looking 3015 02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:26,540 for these bigger ideas we were looking 3016 02:08:31,720 --> 02:08:29,810 for a a locked hangar with a hidden 3017 02:08:36,280 --> 02:08:31,730 Roswell craft well you see that's 3018 02:08:38,260 --> 02:08:36,290 another part too back in the 60s in 65 3019 02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:38,270 Allen Greenfield and I were talking 3020 02:08:43,510 --> 02:08:40,730 about alternate realities multiverse 3021 02:08:45,750 --> 02:08:43,520 other possible theories but that had 3022 02:08:48,189 --> 02:08:45,760 been going on for a long time you'd see 3023 02:08:51,850 --> 02:08:48,199 connections with 4d and other possible 3024 02:08:54,700 --> 02:08:51,860 phenomena in connection with UFOs when 3025 02:08:56,919 --> 02:08:54,710 Roswell really took control the public's 3026 02:09:00,130 --> 02:08:56,929 consciousness it was already getting 3027 02:09:03,450 --> 02:09:00,140 into the 90s but even before that I 3028 02:09:07,330 --> 02:09:03,460 think there was a swing back to the ETH 3029 02:09:09,970 --> 02:09:07,340 mostly because any coverage about UFOs 3030 02:09:11,500 --> 02:09:09,980 that were received would be obvious 3031 02:09:15,250 --> 02:09:11,510 gobby spaceships look at the sighting 3032 02:09:17,500 --> 02:09:15,260 flap in the early 1970s I saw that 3033 02:09:19,419 --> 02:09:17,510 head-on not the sightings but the 3034 02:09:22,300 --> 02:09:19,429 reports because I was working at a radio 3035 02:09:26,140 --> 02:09:22,310 station in the suburbs of Philadelphia 3036 02:09:29,410 --> 02:09:26,150 in the early 70s and when sightings were 3037 02:09:31,300 --> 02:09:29,420 reported in Pennsylvania I go out to 3038 02:09:34,479 --> 02:09:31,310 cover them I had a magazine on this 3039 02:09:37,060 --> 02:09:34,489 subject so you know we were keeping it 3040 02:09:40,060 --> 02:09:37,070 up there and we had this speculation but 3041 02:09:43,300 --> 02:09:40,070 I kind of agree that it sort of faded 3042 02:09:45,729 --> 02:09:43,310 out as Roswell began to take over but a 3043 02:09:47,919 --> 02:09:45,739 lot of us never changed in our 3044 02:09:51,340 --> 02:09:47,929 viewpoints is just that Roswell became 3045 02:09:53,439 --> 02:09:51,350 such a 900-pound gorilla fewer people 3046 02:09:55,350 --> 02:09:53,449 paid attention to things that were 3047 02:09:57,490 --> 02:09:55,360 always going on 3048 02:09:58,899 --> 02:09:57,500 they're got two hour break and then 3049 02:10:02,260 --> 02:09:58,909 we'll go on with this kind of 3050 02:10:05,110 --> 02:10:02,270 speculation after coffee really bad 3051 02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:05,120 okay so I'll coffin let's we got 15 3052 02:10:10,149 --> 02:10:06,530 seconds we'll hold the call for 15 3053 02:10:12,129 --> 02:10:10,159 seconds if you can were like that we got 3054 02:10:17,169 --> 02:10:12,139 more to come of course we're talking - 3055 02:10:20,590 --> 02:10:17,179 MJ Baniyas who refers to UFOs and were 3056 02:10:22,959 --> 02:10:20,600 of a philosophical way Kurt Collins he 3057 02:10:24,879 --> 02:10:22,969 was one of the Roswell slide study group 3058 02:10:28,330 --> 02:10:24,889 and he covers that of course in the book 3059 02:10:36,080 --> 02:10:28,340 UFOs reframing the debate with Gene and 3060 02:10:36,090 --> 02:10:40,590 [Music] 3061 02:10:48,260 --> 02:10:44,520 thank you for listening to GCN 3062 02:10:50,670 --> 02:10:48,270 be sure to visit GCN live.com today 3063 02:10:53,040 --> 02:10:50,680 you've heard the phrase you are what you 3064 02:10:54,870 --> 02:10:53,050 eat not true actually you are what you 3065 02:10:56,370 --> 02:10:54,880 can absorb so if the vitamins and 3066 02:10:57,780 --> 02:10:56,380 supplements you now take are not being 3067 02:10:59,610 --> 02:10:57,790 absorbed what good are they 3068 02:11:01,230 --> 02:10:59,620 introducing proto vite proprietary 3069 02:11:03,120 --> 02:11:01,240 liquid system that allows premium 3070 02:11:05,100 --> 02:11:03,130 quality nutrients to positively affect 3071 02:11:07,170 --> 02:11:05,110 the blood in an astonishing five minutes 3072 02:11:09,120 --> 02:11:07,180 watch our amazing 2-minute live blood 3073 02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:09,130 cell video at true health facts com 3074 02:11:14,700 --> 02:11:11,650 that's true health facts calm and call 3075 02:11:16,650 --> 02:11:14,710 502 for 10:30 411 prota bite is 3076 02:11:19,260 --> 02:11:16,660 nutrition you can feel proto bite is 3077 02:11:21,540 --> 02:11:19,270 nutrition that gets in lifetime grace 3078 02:11:23,250 --> 02:11:21,550 100% grass-fed beef has the health 3079 02:11:25,020 --> 02:11:23,260 benefits you seek when compared to 3080 02:11:26,610 --> 02:11:25,030 conventional beef it offers good fats 3081 02:11:28,530 --> 02:11:26,620 while virtually eliminating the bad 3082 02:11:30,990 --> 02:11:28,540 that's the result of cattle who never 3083 02:11:33,180 --> 02:11:31,000 eat grain ever rich in antioxidants 3084 02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:33,190 including vitamin E c beta-carotene and 3085 02:11:37,950 --> 02:11:35,530 CLA no artificial hormones antibiotics 3086 02:11:40,050 --> 02:11:37,960 or other drugs were all our fresh non 3087 02:11:42,720 --> 02:11:40,060 cooked products with only 100% grass-fed 3088 02:11:44,880 --> 02:11:42,730 beef go to Mitas resources comm news 3089 02:11:47,010 --> 02:11:44,890 bunker coat GC nd at 30% of your order 3090 02:11:49,660 --> 02:11:47,020 midas resources comm or find us on 3091 02:11:53,900 --> 02:11:52,220 hi there I'm Bob Eubanks you know as 3092 02:11:55,790 --> 02:11:53,910 part of Hollywood for a long time I've 3093 02:11:56,870 --> 02:11:55,800 seen my fair share of celebrities get in 3094 02:11:59,780 --> 02:11:56,880 trouble with the IRS 3095 02:12:02,390 --> 02:11:59,790 well there's one name I trust the tax 3096 02:12:04,630 --> 02:12:02,400 defense group they're the most trusted 3097 02:12:07,580 --> 02:12:04,640 name in tax so if you owe more than 3098 02:12:09,770 --> 02:12:07,590 $10,000 to the IRS you really need to 3099 02:12:12,470 --> 02:12:09,780 call my friends at the tax defense group 3100 02:12:14,870 --> 02:12:12,480 ignoring the IRS is not the solution 3101 02:12:16,730 --> 02:12:14,880 they can garnish your paycheck levy your 3102 02:12:19,070 --> 02:12:16,740 bank accounts seize your home or 3103 02:12:21,260 --> 02:12:19,080 business but the tax defense group could 3104 02:12:23,780 --> 02:12:21,270 put a stop to all of that and tailor a 3105 02:12:25,610 --> 02:12:23,790 program that would reduce your tax debt 3106 02:12:27,830 --> 02:12:25,620 to pennies on the dollar 3107 02:12:29,840 --> 02:12:27,840 you've got to love that so don't just 3108 02:12:31,970 --> 02:12:29,850 take my word for it call them find out 3109 02:12:34,760 --> 02:12:31,980 for yourself they offer a 100% 3110 02:12:36,980 --> 02:12:34,770 satisfaction guarantee and they're open 3111 02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:36,990 24 hours a day because they know that 3112 02:12:41,450 --> 02:12:39,810 tax debt doesn't sleep either call now 3113 02:12:43,220 --> 02:12:41,460 for your free and confidential tax 3114 02:12:46,070 --> 02:12:43,230 analysis from the most trusted name in 3115 02:12:48,650 --> 02:12:46,080 tax call 800 three six one sixty nine oh 3116 02:12:51,800 --> 02:12:48,660 seven eight hundred three six one sixty 3117 02:12:53,420 --> 02:12:51,810 nine oh seven hi this is ron paul former 3118 02:12:55,490 --> 02:12:53,430 congressman and republican presidential 3119 02:12:57,500 --> 02:12:55,500 candidate I love these summer months 3120 02:12:59,180 --> 02:12:57,510 because this is when I get to enjoy the 3121 02:13:01,310 --> 02:12:59,190 fresh fruits and vegetables that are 3122 02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:01,320 being harvested on small farms and in 3123 02:13:05,090 --> 02:13:03,570 our backyards we all look forward to 3124 02:13:07,130 --> 02:13:05,100 garden tomatoes and corn on the cob 3125 02:13:09,230 --> 02:13:07,140 don't you wish there was a better way to 3126 02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:09,240 preserve their true tastes and flavors 3127 02:13:13,490 --> 02:13:11,130 I'm here to tell you that there is a 3128 02:13:16,220 --> 02:13:13,500 better way it's by using the amazing 3129 02:13:18,560 --> 02:13:16,230 home fries drier from harvest right I 3130 02:13:20,290 --> 02:13:18,570 have a harvest right freeze dryer and 3131 02:13:23,090 --> 02:13:20,300 use it to preserve the foods I love 3132 02:13:25,370 --> 02:13:23,100 strawberries apples and even lasagna and 3133 02:13:27,770 --> 02:13:25,380 ice cream can stay fresh for 25 years 3134 02:13:30,080 --> 02:13:27,780 and the best part of my freeze drying is 3135 02:13:32,660 --> 02:13:30,090 my family and I have a supply of long 3136 02:13:35,390 --> 02:13:32,670 lasting food on hand so no matter what 3137 02:13:37,700 --> 02:13:35,400 may come we feel better prepared we love 3138 02:13:40,040 --> 02:13:37,710 our freeze dryer to learn more go to 3139 02:13:42,590 --> 02:13:40,050 harvest write calm or call eight hundred 3140 02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:42,600 nine to three ninety five ninety one 3141 02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:45,090 that's harvest write calm or eight 3142 02:13:50,930 --> 02:13:47,370 hundred nine to three ninety five ninety 3143 02:13:52,550 --> 02:13:50,940 one hello I'm Mike Mendell the inventor 3144 02:13:54,590 --> 02:13:52,560 of my pillow and like all of you out 3145 02:13:56,420 --> 02:13:54,600 there I have problem sleeping pillows 3146 02:13:58,100 --> 02:13:56,430 would go flat I would flip flop all 3147 02:13:59,729 --> 02:13:58,110 night long I would wake up with a sore 3148 02:14:01,439 --> 02:13:59,739 neck maybe a head ache 3149 02:14:03,600 --> 02:14:01,449 I needed a nap even though I slept eight 3150 02:14:05,189 --> 02:14:03,610 hours when I invented my pillow I wanted 3151 02:14:07,439 --> 02:14:05,199 it to where you can move the patented 3152 02:14:09,270 --> 02:14:07,449 fill to give you the exact support you 3153 02:14:11,279 --> 02:14:09,280 need as an individual regardless of 3154 02:14:13,259 --> 02:14:11,289 sleep position my pillow will get you 3155 02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:13,269 into that deep REM sleep faster and you 3156 02:14:16,799 --> 02:14:15,010 will stay there longer it's not about 3157 02:14:18,750 --> 02:14:16,809 how much time we spend in bed it's about 3158 02:14:20,729 --> 02:14:18,760 how much of that quality sleep we get I 3159 02:14:22,379 --> 02:14:20,739 do all of my own manufacturing right 3160 02:14:24,359 --> 02:14:22,389 here in the United States I have a 10 3161 02:14:26,459 --> 02:14:24,369 year warranty you can wash and dry my 3162 02:14:28,379 --> 02:14:26,469 pillow and I give you a 60 day money 3163 02:14:30,629 --> 02:14:28,389 back guarantee so you have nothing to 3164 02:14:32,279 --> 02:14:30,639 lose and here's my best offer ever you 3165 02:14:34,770 --> 02:14:32,289 can buy one of my pillows and get one 3166 02:14:38,129 --> 02:14:34,780 absolutely free a go to my pillow comm 3167 02:14:41,339 --> 02:14:38,139 or call 887 zero zero three zero five 3168 02:14:43,620 --> 02:14:41,349 and use promo code GCN that's my pillow 3169 02:14:51,250 --> 02:14:43,630 comm or eight hundred eighty seven zero 3170 02:14:51,260 --> 02:14:55,339 [Music] 3171 02:14:59,310 --> 02:14:57,450 this is Micah Hanks to the graylien 3172 02:15:01,379 --> 02:14:59,320 report and you're listening to the para 3173 02:15:02,100 --> 02:15:01,389 cast the gold standard of paranormal 3174 02:15:09,639 --> 02:15:02,110 radio 3175 02:15:13,609 --> 02:15:09,649 [Music] 3176 02:15:16,759 --> 02:15:13,619 we are exploring cultural philosophical 3177 02:15:19,810 --> 02:15:16,769 aspects of the UFO mystery did Roswell 3178 02:15:22,369 --> 02:15:19,820 kind of impede the search for the truth 3179 02:15:24,139 --> 02:15:22,379 MJ benaiah skirt Collins Jean 3180 02:15:27,099 --> 02:15:24,149 steinberger Kapoor 3181 02:15:30,109 --> 02:15:27,109 this is a sort of a follow on to a 3182 02:15:32,869 --> 02:15:30,119 Jeremiah's question from earlier in this 3183 02:15:34,520 --> 02:15:32,879 said deals with will spin off from 3184 02:15:36,079 --> 02:15:34,530 Roswell but deals with the lack of 3185 02:15:38,359 --> 02:15:36,089 physical evidence 3186 02:15:40,339 --> 02:15:38,369 so often when heated debates erupt over 3187 02:15:43,069 --> 02:15:40,349 persons or cases there seems to be a 3188 02:15:44,750 --> 02:15:43,079 logical fallacy in play why do you think 3189 02:15:46,729 --> 02:15:44,760 this is prevalent and how can be 3190 02:15:47,719 --> 02:15:46,739 overcome in a field so lacking in 3191 02:15:50,659 --> 02:15:47,729 physical evidence 3192 02:15:53,209 --> 02:15:50,669 maybe the logical fallacy is sort of the 3193 02:15:55,189 --> 02:15:53,219 UFO phenomena in the case of physical 3194 02:15:57,619 --> 02:15:55,199 evidence you know I agree this is sort 3195 02:16:01,310 --> 02:15:57,629 of a significant problem I think UFO 3196 02:16:04,779 --> 02:16:01,320 community has sort of started to engage 3197 02:16:07,729 --> 02:16:04,789 itself more with non extra-terrestrial 3198 02:16:09,909 --> 02:16:07,739 hypothesis sort of discussions because 3199 02:16:13,790 --> 02:16:09,919 of this lack of physical evidence right 3200 02:16:15,679 --> 02:16:13,800 it's easier to go to the more 3201 02:16:17,359 --> 02:16:15,689 metaphysical experiences the more 3202 02:16:20,389 --> 02:16:17,369 mystical experiences it's a lot easier 3203 02:16:21,889 --> 02:16:20,399 to discuss you know universal 3204 02:16:23,569 --> 02:16:21,899 consciousness or interdimensional beings 3205 02:16:25,579 --> 02:16:23,579 because ultimately you then don't need 3206 02:16:28,399 --> 02:16:25,589 to justify the lack of physical evidence 3207 02:16:30,049 --> 02:16:28,409 you can simply say there is no physical 3208 02:16:32,389 --> 02:16:30,059 evidence because you know they don't 3209 02:16:35,030 --> 02:16:32,399 have any physical presence they don't 3210 02:16:37,370 --> 02:16:35,040 sort of exist within a physical realm 3211 02:16:39,200 --> 02:16:37,380 you and I understand and we see this 3212 02:16:40,339 --> 02:16:39,210 sort of shift it's been around for a 3213 02:16:42,429 --> 02:16:40,349 while like don't get me wrong but we 3214 02:16:47,299 --> 02:16:42,439 definitely see sort of this movement 3215 02:16:50,959 --> 02:16:47,309 towards that aspect of the UFO sort of 3216 02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:50,969 debate you know in regards to you know 3217 02:16:54,679 --> 02:16:52,290 when you get into a heated discussion 3218 02:16:56,469 --> 02:16:54,689 and people sort of asked you know are 3219 02:17:00,019 --> 02:16:56,479 UFOs real and our aliens or whatever 3220 02:17:01,609 --> 02:17:00,029 there is a sort of a it is a legitimate 3221 02:17:03,200 --> 02:17:01,619 argument to say well you know where's 3222 02:17:06,469 --> 02:17:03,210 your evidence or where's your physical 3223 02:17:08,689 --> 02:17:06,479 evidence but this is a very very sort of 3224 02:17:09,229 --> 02:17:08,699 spooky phenomenon and it doesn't make 3225 02:17:12,080 --> 02:17:09,239 sense 3226 02:17:15,919 --> 02:17:12,090 it's very nonsensical sort of all the 3227 02:17:17,719 --> 02:17:15,929 time so again if we're dealing with sort 3228 02:17:19,189 --> 02:17:17,729 of an intelligence that isn't 3229 02:17:20,839 --> 02:17:19,199 necessarily physical like you and I are 3230 02:17:23,639 --> 02:17:20,849 physical you know there might not 3231 02:17:25,349 --> 02:17:23,649 necessarily be physical 3232 02:17:26,819 --> 02:17:25,359 but again I'm sort of speculating here 3233 02:17:28,410 --> 02:17:26,829 and this is just you know I'm 3234 02:17:32,189 --> 02:17:28,420 spitballing because you know ultimately 3235 02:17:35,309 --> 02:17:32,199 I don't know I don't have an answer the 3236 02:17:37,589 --> 02:17:35,319 debates gonna rage until either you know 3237 02:17:39,059 --> 02:17:37,599 we find a body or a veil and on the 3238 02:17:40,200 --> 02:17:39,069 White House lawn right ultimately like 3239 02:17:45,719 --> 02:17:40,210 it's gonna have to be sort of some 3240 02:17:49,490 --> 02:17:45,729 obvious show or manifestation that that 3241 02:17:52,799 --> 02:17:49,500 kind of ends this debate potentially 3242 02:17:55,309 --> 02:17:52,809 well I wanted to return to something we 3243 02:17:58,290 --> 02:17:55,319 touched on earlier which was about the 3244 02:18:02,700 --> 02:17:58,300 experience of the witness and respect 3245 02:18:05,580 --> 02:18:02,710 forum I was looking at old accounts of 3246 02:18:08,609 --> 02:18:05,590 sea serpents and there were cartoons and 3247 02:18:10,620 --> 02:18:08,619 newspapers in the 1800's about people 3248 02:18:12,629 --> 02:18:10,630 making fun of the witnesses as as 3249 02:18:14,910 --> 02:18:12,639 drunkards and things like that so that 3250 02:18:17,580 --> 02:18:14,920 some people seem to have the opinion 3251 02:18:19,979 --> 02:18:17,590 that ridicule of UFO witnesses is is 3252 02:18:21,299 --> 02:18:19,989 something new but they were ridiculing 3253 02:18:23,219 --> 02:18:21,309 people for seeing fairies and 3254 02:18:26,339 --> 02:18:23,229 leprechauns so that's not really a new 3255 02:18:30,990 --> 02:18:26,349 thing but you know so how do we show and 3256 02:18:32,569 --> 02:18:31,000 can we show UFO witnesses respect well 3257 02:18:34,620 --> 02:18:32,579 certainly hopefully we can is 3258 02:18:36,629 --> 02:18:34,630 investigators but but what about the 3259 02:18:40,200 --> 02:18:36,639 public how can attitudes on that change 3260 02:18:42,959 --> 02:18:40,210 Wow so I do touch on this in my essay I 3261 02:18:46,049 --> 02:18:42,969 you know I'm not sure if it will change 3262 02:18:48,809 --> 02:18:46,059 I think that there's a lot at stake here 3263 02:18:50,939 --> 02:18:48,819 especially when it comes to you know 3264 02:18:54,479 --> 02:18:50,949 this or the current power systems that 3265 02:18:56,759 --> 02:18:54,489 sort of govern our society I think if we 3266 02:19:00,870 --> 02:18:56,769 start looking at UFO witnesses and 3267 02:19:05,250 --> 02:19:00,880 saying you know we as a whole as 3268 02:19:08,459 --> 02:19:05,260 mainstream society respect your your 3269 02:19:11,459 --> 02:19:08,469 opinion or we respect the fact that you 3270 02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:11,469 were taken by aliens I think this this 3271 02:19:16,889 --> 02:19:13,889 would be a major sort of shift 3272 02:19:19,200 --> 02:19:16,899 ideologically we don't do this with 3273 02:19:20,639 --> 02:19:19,210 other people right like we where we're 3274 02:19:23,189 --> 02:19:20,649 not necessarily very good at treating 3275 02:19:24,209 --> 02:19:23,199 sort of people who aren't abducted by 3276 02:19:26,370 --> 02:19:24,219 aliens with respect 3277 02:19:33,419 --> 02:19:26,380 never mind reading you know those who 3278 02:19:35,399 --> 02:19:33,429 are so um we're kind of I don't know if 3279 02:19:36,690 --> 02:19:35,409 that's ever gonna happen I honestly I 3280 02:19:39,839 --> 02:19:36,700 honestly don't I think 3281 02:19:42,270 --> 02:19:39,849 the UFO culture has to exist on the 3282 02:19:45,870 --> 02:19:42,280 fringe because if it becomes part of 3283 02:19:47,549 --> 02:19:45,880 sort of the mainstream it becomes kind 3284 02:19:49,770 --> 02:19:47,559 of part of the general sciences and it 3285 02:19:50,730 --> 02:19:49,780 becomes sort of accepted as you know 3286 02:19:53,190 --> 02:19:50,740 something that people are willing to 3287 02:19:55,410 --> 02:19:53,200 talk about on a daily basis and then I 3288 02:19:57,870 --> 02:19:55,420 think sort of the UFO community or 3289 02:19:59,610 --> 02:19:57,880 subculture sort of dies a death you know 3290 02:20:00,900 --> 02:19:59,620 like it's not the same thing anymore it 3291 02:20:04,560 --> 02:20:00,910 becomes something fundamentally 3292 02:20:06,060 --> 02:20:04,570 different I'm a firm believer in in sort 3293 02:20:08,969 --> 02:20:06,070 of going back to the witness like 3294 02:20:11,490 --> 02:20:08,979 personally I think the witness is really 3295 02:20:13,830 --> 02:20:11,500 the only thing we have when it comes to 3296 02:20:15,210 --> 02:20:13,840 the UFO question I think it's I think 3297 02:20:18,510 --> 02:20:15,220 they're sort of the most important 3298 02:20:19,620 --> 02:20:18,520 people within the UFO discourse because 3299 02:20:22,170 --> 02:20:19,630 ultimately they're the ones having the 3300 02:20:25,530 --> 02:20:22,180 experiences because there is no physical 3301 02:20:28,050 --> 02:20:25,540 evidence really ever that allows them or 3302 02:20:30,330 --> 02:20:28,060 sort of allows us rather to to have a 3303 02:20:34,380 --> 02:20:30,340 clearer image of what's going on so I 3304 02:20:36,540 --> 02:20:34,390 think the ridicule is is misplaced I 3305 02:20:38,460 --> 02:20:36,550 think beautiful witnesses and sort of 3306 02:20:40,260 --> 02:20:38,470 the contactees with the abductees or 3307 02:20:42,510 --> 02:20:40,270 whatever are really the people we need 3308 02:20:44,870 --> 02:20:42,520 to be talking to because really they're 3309 02:20:49,020 --> 02:20:44,880 our own there they are only kind of 3310 02:20:52,260 --> 02:20:49,030 sight line to ever potentially finding 3311 02:20:55,080 --> 02:20:52,270 an answer to the puzzle but will it ever 3312 02:20:56,219 --> 02:20:55,090 sort of be accepted by the mainstream or 3313 02:20:58,890 --> 02:20:56,229 will they ever be accepted by the 3314 02:21:01,950 --> 02:20:58,900 mainstream I don't know that's that's 3315 02:21:03,050 --> 02:21:01,960 going to be that's a tall order that's 3316 02:21:05,580 --> 02:21:03,060 for sure 3317 02:21:08,940 --> 02:21:05,590 well one of the things that that have 3318 02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:08,950 has bothered me is that I feel like a 3319 02:21:17,070 --> 02:21:13,530 lot of times UFO investigators have been 3320 02:21:18,900 --> 02:21:17,080 intrusive in the investigation and have 3321 02:21:21,719 --> 02:21:18,910 been fluent the witnesses vary for 3322 02:21:24,090 --> 02:21:21,729 example we mentioned the Socorro case a 3323 02:21:28,880 --> 02:21:24,100 few times but officer Lonnie Zamora saw 3324 02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:28,890 this this object and because it looked 3325 02:21:33,810 --> 02:21:30,930 mechanical and there seemed to be 3326 02:21:36,510 --> 02:21:33,820 footprints it was investigated as a 3327 02:21:40,860 --> 02:21:36,520 machine but if you listen to his 3328 02:21:43,710 --> 02:21:40,870 testimony he thought this was uh 3329 02:21:45,870 --> 02:21:43,720 well you refer to the devil you know he 3330 02:21:48,480 --> 02:21:45,880 thought this was a supernatural being he 3331 02:21:51,110 --> 02:21:48,490 was religious man and that comes to 3332 02:21:54,349 --> 02:21:51,120 playing that cash fine okay yeah 3333 02:21:56,340 --> 02:21:54,359 everybody's you know it's almost like oh 3334 02:21:59,070 --> 02:21:56,350 you know gearheads 3335 02:22:02,130 --> 02:21:59,080 Martin car fans all they can think about 3336 02:22:04,670 --> 02:22:02,140 is the vehicle it's not about what they 3337 02:22:07,679 --> 02:22:04,680 and in some of these a day what would if 3338 02:22:11,940 --> 02:22:07,689 what if we might have got nowhere but 3339 02:22:13,950 --> 02:22:11,950 what if a I want to would have joggle a 3340 02:22:15,660 --> 02:22:13,960 or John Kehoe draft on the same person 3341 02:22:17,670 --> 02:22:15,670 investigated you know would we be 3342 02:22:20,750 --> 02:22:17,680 talking about this as more of a 3343 02:22:24,389 --> 02:22:20,760 supernatural event rather than a 3344 02:22:28,410 --> 02:22:24,399 spaceship or or a secret project from 3345 02:22:32,130 --> 02:22:28,420 White Sands right and you know this is 3346 02:22:33,240 --> 02:22:32,140 this is again you know we're kind of you 3347 02:22:35,010 --> 02:22:33,250 know I feel like we're circling kind of 3348 02:22:35,969 --> 02:22:35,020 around the same thing here and and we've 3349 02:22:38,179 --> 02:22:35,979 sort of been circle around it for a 3350 02:22:40,980 --> 02:22:38,189 while it's it ultimately comes down to 3351 02:22:43,590 --> 02:22:40,990 sort of the ideological baggage you 3352 02:22:45,450 --> 02:22:43,600 bring into your experience right you 3353 02:22:48,179 --> 02:22:45,460 know what you carry in with you 3354 02:22:49,349 --> 02:22:48,189 crates sort of the reality of the 3355 02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:49,359 situation you know you're not 3356 02:22:52,020 --> 02:22:51,010 necessarily you know shaping reality I'm 3357 02:22:55,020 --> 02:22:52,030 not making claims like that but really 3358 02:22:59,190 --> 02:22:55,030 your your interpretation kind of makes 3359 02:23:02,460 --> 02:22:59,200 it real in a sense so yeah if if you had 3360 02:23:04,080 --> 02:23:02,470 someone who interprets this situation an 3361 02:23:07,050 --> 02:23:04,090 investigator who interprets it in a more 3362 02:23:09,330 --> 02:23:07,060 spiritual or metaphysical way of course 3363 02:23:13,950 --> 02:23:09,340 you know the it's going to change the 3364 02:23:17,130 --> 02:23:13,960 the event itself the the story of the 3365 02:23:18,540 --> 02:23:17,140 event itself is going to change and this 3366 02:23:21,030 --> 02:23:18,550 is a problem this is sort of I think 3367 02:23:22,770 --> 02:23:21,040 where we're at times sort of MUFON fails 3368 02:23:25,980 --> 02:23:22,780 and move on field investigators at times 3369 02:23:29,099 --> 02:23:25,990 fail they approach the subject with a 3370 02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:29,109 pre-loaded set of this is what I think's 3371 02:23:33,870 --> 02:23:31,810 going on and when that comes to the 3372 02:23:35,429 --> 02:23:33,880 table it's going to influence the 3373 02:23:37,050 --> 02:23:35,439 witness it's going to influence the case 3374 02:23:38,670 --> 02:23:37,060 it's going to influence the sighting 3375 02:23:41,790 --> 02:23:38,680 itself and and how that sighting is 3376 02:23:44,969 --> 02:23:41,800 recorded and talked about so yeah I 3377 02:23:47,670 --> 02:23:44,979 think that is what happens I agree with 3378 02:23:50,160 --> 02:23:47,680 you sort of wholeheartedly in this I can 3379 02:23:52,139 --> 02:23:50,170 give you an example of a really then 3380 02:23:53,910 --> 02:23:52,149 this wasn't a trained investigator this 3381 02:23:56,910 --> 02:23:53,920 is from the case of the Roswell 3382 02:23:58,649 --> 02:23:56,920 once the we have 20 seconds just kind of 3383 02:24:01,170 --> 02:23:58,659 preview it then we'll go into the final 3384 02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:01,180 segment I have an example from the 3385 02:24:05,540 --> 02:24:03,130 Roswell slides about a band investigator 3386 02:24:07,920 --> 02:24:05,550 we'll save that for after the break 3387 02:24:11,450 --> 02:24:07,930 we've got Kurt Collins is our guest 3388 02:24:14,070 --> 02:24:11,460 co-host Chris a Brian is on his way to 3389 02:24:14,610 --> 02:24:14,080 the Utah fest we have to find out what 3390 02:24:17,370 --> 02:24:14,620 that's about 3391 02:24:20,610 --> 02:24:17,380 MJ Ben is joining us for the first time 3392 02:24:23,460 --> 02:24:20,620 it won't be the last a lot more to come 3393 02:24:25,889 --> 02:24:23,470 I'm gene Steinberg and you're not no 3394 02:24:29,410 --> 02:24:25,899 that's not the way to do it you're in 3395 02:24:38,969 --> 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02:28:10,870 --> 02:28:08,029 or call eight seven seven eight seven 3480 02:28:13,090 --> 02:28:10,880 eight four two zero three GC and team 3481 02:28:15,580 --> 02:28:13,100 comm or call eight seven seven eight 3482 02:28:18,519 --> 02:28:15,590 seven eight four two zero three lose 3483 02:28:21,519 --> 02:28:18,529 weight and look great with ASAP as slim 3484 02:28:23,889 --> 02:28:21,529 as possible be prepared for the next 3485 02:28:26,110 --> 02:28:23,899 disaster with the shelter pod the 3486 02:28:28,330 --> 02:28:26,120 shelter pod is a large all season heavy 3487 02:28:30,550 --> 02:28:28,340 duty quick deploy shelter the shelter 3488 02:28:32,620 --> 02:28:30,560 pod system can be set up in 30 seconds 3489 02:28:35,330 --> 02:28:32,630 and includes an emergency medical kit 3490 02:28:36,921 --> 02:28:35,340 water filter survival tools 3491 02:28:38,480 --> 02:28:36,931 are you prepared to take care of your 3492 02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:38,490 family do you have everything in one 3493 02:28:43,011 --> 02:28:41,370 place ready to go get it now or enter to 3494 02:28:45,381 --> 02:28:43,021 win a complete shelter pod system at 3495 02:28:48,110 --> 02:28:45,391 shelter pod calm the shelter pod at 3496 02:28:52,010 --> 02:28:48,120 shelter pod calm shelter when you need 3497 02:28:59,360 --> 02:28:56,320 [Music] 3498 02:29:01,671 --> 02:28:59,370 this is the wrong Clark author of the 3499 02:29:08,240 --> 02:29:01,681 UFO encyclopedia other books you're 3500 02:29:09,860 --> 02:29:08,250 listening to the podcast nobody 3501 02:29:13,100 --> 02:29:09,870 remembers what that means I'm Jean 3502 02:29:15,110 --> 02:29:13,110 Steinberg and you're not um whatever I I 3503 02:29:17,570 --> 02:29:15,120 was there you were there I don't know 3504 02:29:20,631 --> 02:29:17,580 where I was but if I ever get there 3505 02:29:22,700 --> 02:29:20,641 lookin to you Kurt you had something to 3506 02:29:26,921 --> 02:29:22,710 begin with here we were talking about 3507 02:29:28,671 --> 02:29:26,931 the the investigator intruding on the 3508 02:29:31,070 --> 02:29:28,681 investigation or the witness's 3509 02:29:34,551 --> 02:29:31,080 perception and had an example from the 3510 02:29:38,000 --> 02:29:34,561 Roswell sides fiasco so the slides 3511 02:29:40,040 --> 02:29:38,010 promoter Adam do went to Iraq the last 3512 02:29:42,620 --> 02:29:40,050 supposedly the last living Roswell 3513 02:29:45,410 --> 02:29:42,630 witness and so he opens his laptop and 3514 02:29:48,290 --> 02:29:45,420 basically says hey does this look like 3515 02:29:51,470 --> 02:29:48,300 the alien you saw well you know that's 3516 02:29:53,600 --> 02:29:51,480 like a botched what do they call that 3517 02:29:55,700 --> 02:29:53,610 the subjective photos you know that a 3518 02:29:57,980 --> 02:29:55,710 police would show you know he he would 3519 02:30:00,890 --> 02:29:57,990 say hey is this the guy that did a you 3520 02:30:04,070 --> 02:30:00,900 know robbed your bank you show a photo 3521 02:30:06,080 --> 02:30:04,080 array and let them choose and sometimes 3522 02:30:08,120 --> 02:30:06,090 they do a trick and they don't even have 3523 02:30:09,740 --> 02:30:08,130 the guy in there you know as a test so 3524 02:30:12,020 --> 02:30:09,750 that the person is actually looking and 3525 02:30:15,710 --> 02:30:12,030 considering but this was such a bot box 3526 02:30:19,790 --> 02:30:15,720 method and the guy says uh yeah that's 3527 02:30:22,881 --> 02:30:19,800 pretty close so in that that's terrible 3528 02:30:26,180 --> 02:30:22,891 so it's very easy especially for a 3529 02:30:29,270 --> 02:30:26,190 authority figure to come in and to sort 3530 02:30:34,220 --> 02:30:29,280 of shape the witness's testimony and 3531 02:30:37,160 --> 02:30:34,230 have you saw a bright silver saucer 3532 02:30:39,261 --> 02:30:37,170 right and they may get the witness to 3533 02:30:41,180 --> 02:30:39,271 agree to them and even some of the 3534 02:30:42,620 --> 02:30:41,190 things that are passive like we were 3535 02:30:44,960 --> 02:30:42,630 talking about that the MUFON 3536 02:30:46,490 --> 02:30:44,970 investigation when you submit a witness 3537 02:30:50,420 --> 02:30:46,500 report there's this long 3538 02:30:52,250 --> 02:30:50,430 here and as a test I fill one out one 3539 02:30:54,110 --> 02:30:52,260 time I'd seen a shooting star and I said 3540 02:30:56,540 --> 02:30:54,120 hey this would be a good way to to kind 3541 02:30:57,980 --> 02:30:56,550 of test the system and I started reading 3542 02:31:00,170 --> 02:30:57,990 and it said you know did you have any 3543 02:31:02,330 --> 02:31:00,180 thoughts as this occurred or you need to 3544 02:31:04,280 --> 02:31:02,340 have any feelings and things you know I 3545 02:31:05,930 --> 02:31:04,290 didn't but it started made me kind of 3546 02:31:08,630 --> 02:31:05,940 question myself and it was a person 3547 02:31:10,490 --> 02:31:08,640 asking me that in a suggestive way I 3548 02:31:13,550 --> 02:31:10,500 might have agreed and said well yeah I 3549 02:31:15,800 --> 02:31:13,560 did have this feeling of oneness all 3550 02:31:17,690 --> 02:31:15,810 right you know and so it would have been 3551 02:31:20,270 --> 02:31:17,700 real yeah there's definitely a lot of 3552 02:31:21,500 --> 02:31:20,280 leading questions that can get you down 3553 02:31:23,300 --> 02:31:21,510 that path that's a great example that 3554 02:31:25,010 --> 02:31:23,310 you just mentioned right I think one of 3555 02:31:27,740 --> 02:31:25,020 the questions concerns did you have any 3556 02:31:29,840 --> 02:31:27,750 physical discomfort or emotional sort of 3557 02:31:32,240 --> 02:31:29,850 anxiety or whatever during the event 3558 02:31:34,970 --> 02:31:32,250 there's a sort of this question by 3559 02:31:36,280 --> 02:31:34,980 witnessing the light in the sky did you 3560 02:31:38,660 --> 02:31:36,290 have a physical or physiological 3561 02:31:40,310 --> 02:31:38,670 reaction to it that's totally a leading 3562 02:31:41,780 --> 02:31:40,320 question right because people say oh 3563 02:31:44,390 --> 02:31:41,790 yeah um next day I had a headache 3564 02:31:47,750 --> 02:31:44,400 so was that related I don't know is 3565 02:31:51,200 --> 02:31:47,760 Chris Markowski about what he felt was 3566 02:31:53,210 --> 02:31:51,210 the best UFO reporting swarm and he said 3567 02:31:55,460 --> 02:31:53,220 he didn't think there was one he said 3568 02:31:58,160 --> 02:31:55,470 you need to give the witness the 3569 02:31:59,930 --> 02:31:58,170 opportunity to tell their story and you 3570 02:32:02,990 --> 02:31:59,940 know once that's out you can ask some 3571 02:32:04,820 --> 02:32:03,000 further questions about it but you know 3572 02:32:07,430 --> 02:32:04,830 you're not trying to get them to work 3573 02:32:10,640 --> 02:32:07,440 off a checklist it's to reveal 3574 02:32:13,130 --> 02:32:10,650 information I'll shape it exactly and 3575 02:32:15,740 --> 02:32:13,140 and the the problem is you know again 3576 02:32:17,330 --> 02:32:15,750 move funds you know alleged mission is 3577 02:32:19,040 --> 02:32:17,340 to be scientific and it's to sort of 3578 02:32:21,170 --> 02:32:19,050 collect data and sort of has to sort of 3579 02:32:22,280 --> 02:32:21,180 be done in an orderly fashion like you 3580 02:32:23,480 --> 02:32:22,290 know you understand that right like it 3581 02:32:26,420 --> 02:32:23,490 has to be sort of in this checklist 3582 02:32:28,340 --> 02:32:26,430 style system because otherwise you know 3583 02:32:31,400 --> 02:32:28,350 how do you input data then into a 3584 02:32:34,160 --> 02:32:31,410 database however you know ultimately 3585 02:32:35,930 --> 02:32:34,170 what does all that data do right you 3586 02:32:39,170 --> 02:32:35,940 know do we consider all of that data 3587 02:32:40,880 --> 02:32:39,180 evidence especially since you know the 3588 02:32:43,490 --> 02:32:40,890 way it's collected and investigated it 3589 02:32:44,810 --> 02:32:43,500 is sometimes sloppy and and you know we 3590 02:32:46,700 --> 02:32:44,820 can't really sit there and say yeah I 3591 02:32:49,550 --> 02:32:46,710 know this is you know hard and fast 3592 02:32:51,560 --> 02:32:49,560 proof that you know UFOs are flying by 3593 02:32:54,140 --> 02:32:51,570 and it's intelligent and whatever you 3594 02:32:56,120 --> 02:32:54,150 know doing it the other way allows for 3595 02:32:58,100 --> 02:32:56,130 you know significantly more you know 3596 02:33:00,341 --> 02:32:58,110 sort of honest witness testimony that 3597 02:33:01,571 --> 02:33:00,351 isn't led by anyone there 3598 02:33:03,581 --> 02:33:01,581 or just telling you what happened I 3599 02:33:05,381 --> 02:33:03,591 guess or and you know potential that 3600 02:33:07,841 --> 02:33:05,391 could include how they felt but 3601 02:33:10,541 --> 02:33:07,851 ultimately you know the mufon way 3602 02:33:13,451 --> 02:33:10,551 doesn't necessarily sort of make more 3603 02:33:14,921 --> 02:33:13,461 sense er you know really unless somebody 3604 02:33:16,451 --> 02:33:14,931 has physical evidence right unless 3605 02:33:19,241 --> 02:33:16,461 somebody has something that's testable 3606 02:33:21,610 --> 02:33:19,251 that we can recreate over and over and 3607 02:33:23,350 --> 02:33:21,620 over again or we can scrutinize in 3608 02:33:24,701 --> 02:33:23,360 laboratory conditions or whatever you 3609 02:33:26,680 --> 02:33:24,711 know what are we gonna have we're gonna 3610 02:33:29,591 --> 02:33:26,690 have a story whether that story exists 3611 02:33:31,600 --> 02:33:29,601 in a checklist with with sort of data 3612 02:33:33,970 --> 02:33:31,610 sets and data points or whether that 3613 02:33:36,251 --> 02:33:33,980 story exists just long form this is my 3614 02:33:38,051 --> 02:33:36,261 experience you're collecting the same 3615 02:33:40,541 --> 02:33:38,061 thing you're just organizing it 3616 02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:40,551 differently I suppose the MUFON way 3617 02:33:43,600 --> 02:33:42,530 maybe does lead the witness a little bit 3618 02:33:45,610 --> 02:33:43,610 because there's questions on the 3619 02:33:47,980 --> 02:33:45,620 checklist that sort of need to be asked 3620 02:33:49,690 --> 02:33:47,990 but again you had the strange experience 3621 02:33:51,430 --> 02:33:49,700 you had a headache the next day you know 3622 02:33:52,421 --> 02:33:51,440 maybe it's connected and then you know 3623 02:33:54,301 --> 02:33:52,431 in your own mind yeah I guess it is 3624 02:33:56,621 --> 02:33:54,311 connected the UFO gave me a headache 3625 02:33:57,881 --> 02:33:56,631 whereas it you know I think I said you 3626 02:34:00,371 --> 02:33:57,891 might be a little more honest in the 3627 02:34:02,140 --> 02:34:00,381 long form style like in like as Kris 3628 02:34:04,390 --> 02:34:02,150 says right it's sort of just tell me 3629 02:34:06,551 --> 02:34:04,400 what happened but it hinges upon you 3630 02:34:08,801 --> 02:34:06,561 know it all hinges upon the evidence and 3631 02:34:11,411 --> 02:34:08,811 if you don't have it you have a great 3632 02:34:15,341 --> 02:34:11,421 story that you know may have happened 3633 02:34:18,310 --> 02:34:15,351 for all we know but it's just a story 3634 02:34:21,310 --> 02:34:18,320 and and we can't sit here and make truth 3635 02:34:23,501 --> 02:34:21,320 claims about a story unfortunately so 3636 02:34:25,631 --> 02:34:23,511 you've read the other chapters in the 3637 02:34:28,751 --> 02:34:25,641 book UFOs reframing the debate 3638 02:34:31,140 --> 02:34:28,761 you've been inspired by the ideas 3639 02:34:33,610 --> 02:34:31,150 there's some criticism of the way 3640 02:34:36,491 --> 02:34:33,620 investigations are done but there's some 3641 02:34:39,911 --> 02:34:36,501 constructive ideas on how to move things 3642 02:34:43,690 --> 02:34:39,921 forward do you think the future is in 3643 02:34:45,281 --> 02:34:43,700 ideas or if you had unlimited budget do 3644 02:34:48,371 --> 02:34:45,291 would you have a particular method of 3645 02:34:50,531 --> 02:34:48,381 investigating oh man this is gonna like 3646 02:34:52,390 --> 02:34:50,541 I think this might reveal a little bit 3647 02:34:53,621 --> 02:34:52,400 like what I think so I don't know as a 3648 02:34:56,461 --> 02:34:53,631 philosopher have to be careful here all 3649 02:34:59,591 --> 02:34:56,471 I say is I don't 3650 02:35:02,501 --> 02:34:59,601 whatever this phenomenon is all right 3651 02:35:05,051 --> 02:35:02,511 whatever it is and I I'm not gonna say 3652 02:35:07,150 --> 02:35:05,061 that it's et from another planet and I'm 3653 02:35:09,281 --> 02:35:07,160 not gonna say that it's you know some 3654 02:35:11,591 --> 02:35:09,291 mystical intelligence or something 3655 02:35:13,671 --> 02:35:11,601 whatever it is it's it's strange and 3656 02:35:15,711 --> 02:35:13,681 it's spooky and 3657 02:35:20,390 --> 02:35:15,721 a hundred percent of the time it doesn't 3658 02:35:22,220 --> 02:35:20,400 follow the rules so I'm not sure if if I 3659 02:35:23,930 --> 02:35:22,230 had an unlimited budget and I sank it 3660 02:35:25,430 --> 02:35:23,940 into an investigative organization I 3661 02:35:27,951 --> 02:35:25,440 don't think that investigative 3662 02:35:31,791 --> 02:35:27,961 organization will ever have an answer 3663 02:35:34,041 --> 02:35:31,801 only because with UFOs in general every 3664 02:35:36,230 --> 02:35:34,051 time we get sort of close they get even 3665 02:35:39,591 --> 02:35:36,240 further away you know what I mean they 3666 02:35:40,401 --> 02:35:39,601 have to be unknown for them to exist if 3667 02:35:41,961 --> 02:35:40,411 you catch my drift 3668 02:35:44,180 --> 02:35:41,971 I think ideologically they have to be 3669 02:35:45,621 --> 02:35:44,190 unknown I think sort of as a belief as 3670 02:35:47,091 --> 02:35:45,631 something that we sort of believe in 3671 02:35:48,651 --> 02:35:47,101 they have to be unknown because if it's 3672 02:35:51,621 --> 02:35:48,661 an if it's a known flying object is born 3673 02:35:54,861 --> 02:35:51,631 I don't think there will ever sort of be 3674 02:35:57,560 --> 02:35:54,871 an answer to the UFO question I think 3675 02:35:59,361 --> 02:35:57,570 that is sort of the only truth claim I 3676 02:36:00,951 --> 02:35:59,371 can make at this point in regards to the 3677 02:36:03,171 --> 02:36:00,961 UFO question I don't think we'll ever 3678 02:36:05,751 --> 02:36:03,181 find out what's actually going on I 3679 02:36:07,041 --> 02:36:05,761 think it's me a consistent puzzle that 3680 02:36:09,291 --> 02:36:07,051 just keeps getting bigger and more 3681 02:36:12,111 --> 02:36:09,301 pieces keep getting added with every 3682 02:36:13,461 --> 02:36:12,121 sort of moment that goes by so Kurt I'm 3683 02:36:15,890 --> 02:36:13,471 gonna have to answer your question with 3684 02:36:19,190 --> 02:36:15,900 like this cryptic will never have an 3685 02:36:21,560 --> 02:36:19,200 answer I think answer yeah Kurt Collins 3686 02:36:23,270 --> 02:36:21,570 you've got a blog out there tell our 3687 02:36:25,341 --> 02:36:23,280 listeners they've want to find more of 3688 02:36:28,821 --> 02:36:25,351 the things you do where they check it 3689 02:36:31,640 --> 02:36:28,831 out my blog is called blue blurry lines 3690 02:36:33,861 --> 02:36:31,650 dot-com okay what kind of stuff do you 3691 02:36:36,291 --> 02:36:33,871 have over there oh well I've got lots of 3692 02:36:39,711 --> 02:36:36,301 articles investigating the cache landrum 3693 02:36:42,440 --> 02:36:39,721 UFO case that's special point of 3694 02:36:44,571 --> 02:36:42,450 interest to me I've also got a number of 3695 02:36:46,401 --> 02:36:44,581 things in on the Roswell slide 3696 02:36:49,461 --> 02:36:46,411 investigation and just you know any 3697 02:36:51,651 --> 02:36:49,471 other commentary that that strikes my 3698 02:36:54,411 --> 02:36:51,661 interest a lot of historical UFO details 3699 02:36:57,711 --> 02:36:54,421 as well and I'd like to point out that 3700 02:37:02,421 --> 02:36:57,721 deep Jim Mosely dot-com site remembering 3701 02:37:05,121 --> 02:37:02,431 a UFO myth maker pioneer James W Mosely 3702 02:37:07,091 --> 02:37:05,131 is is worth a look there's lots of a 3703 02:37:11,991 --> 02:37:07,101 photographs and articles there too 3704 02:37:14,861 --> 02:37:12,001 that's Jim Mosely dot-com MJ where can 3705 02:37:18,140 --> 02:37:14,871 we find more of your stuff so I do write 3706 02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:18,150 for mysterious universe which is sort of 3707 02:37:24,201 --> 02:37:21,450 a paranormal news site however my true 3708 02:37:26,570 --> 02:37:24,211 passion is is on my own blog and that's 3709 02:37:28,880 --> 02:37:26,580 at WWE 3710 02:37:31,130 --> 02:37:28,890 Scarah net and that's sort of where you 3711 02:37:33,680 --> 02:37:31,140 can find my philosophical ramblings and 3712 02:37:35,720 --> 02:37:33,690 rantings concerning the UFO question you 3713 02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:35,730 can find us on Twitter look for the 3714 02:37:40,400 --> 02:37:37,410 power cast look for the power cast on 3715 02:37:45,560 --> 02:37:40,410 Twitter look for a pair of para cast fan 3716 02:37:47,630 --> 02:37:45,570 clubs over at Facebook and of course we 3717 02:37:49,700 --> 02:37:47,640 want to remind you about the power cast 3718 02:37:52,640 --> 02:37:49,710 plus it's our Premium Package where we 3719 02:37:55,030 --> 02:37:52,650 offer the after the para cast podcast 3720 02:37:57,500 --> 02:37:55,040 and by the way Kurt Collins will be 3721 02:37:59,780 --> 02:37:57,510 rejoining us on after the power cast 3722 02:38:02,270 --> 02:37:59,790 this week last week we had red pill 3723 02:38:05,030 --> 02:38:02,280 chunky few weeks back we had Monty 3724 02:38:07,580 --> 02:38:05,040 Shriver who lived in Aztec New Mexico 3725 02:38:10,310 --> 02:38:07,590 when a flying saucer allegedly crashed 3726 02:38:12,500 --> 02:38:10,320 there and he said didn't happen you can 3727 02:38:14,570 --> 02:38:12,510 get after the para cast by joining up 3728 02:38:16,250 --> 02:38:14,580 the para cast plus you also get the 3729 02:38:19,730 --> 02:38:16,260 commercial free version of this show 3730 02:38:22,100 --> 02:38:19,740 free of all the network ads 41 minutes 3731 02:38:25,580 --> 02:38:22,110 of those ads taken out better quality 3732 02:38:29,450 --> 02:38:25,590 audio to find more go to plus dot the 3733 02:38:32,690 --> 02:38:29,460 para cast com that's PL us doctor para 3734 02:38:34,580 --> 02:38:32,700 cast calm the subscription rate star 3735 02:38:37,130 --> 02:38:34,590 just a dollar forty nine a week we give 3736 02:38:42,140 --> 02:38:37,140 you all the size of instructions at plus 3737 02:38:45,380 --> 02:38:42,150 thathe para cast calm Kurt Collins MJ 3738 02:38:48,170 --> 02:38:45,390 bonus thank you both for joining us on 3739 02:38:50,450 --> 02:38:48,180 the para cast Thank You Jean it was a 3740 02:38:52,860 --> 02:38:50,460 pleasure it's been an honor I've had a 3741 02:39:05,090 --> 02:38:52,870 great time thank you very much 3742 02:39:11,639 --> 02:39:08,610 the para cast featuring Jean Steinberg 3743 02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:11,649 and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted 3744 02:39:18,420 --> 02:39:14,490 presentation of making the impossible